Who wants to join the POLITE force..

[Gedge]

And what if by chance,your HiViz causes you to be blurred out or lost from view by the light conditions?

Its the mindset that it always works,always helps that imo makes it a dangerous concept...regardless of how careful you think you are or how much you think you arent really relying on it,deep down your mindset is changed by wearing it or riding with your headlights on....( not having a go at anyone in particular , just trying to put across the other side of the coin...)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/b ... luorescent

[Redmurty]

And what if by chance,your HiViz causes you to be blurred out or lost from view by the light conditions?

Its the mindset that it always works,always helps that imo makes it a dangerous concept...regardless of how careful you think you are or how much you think you arent really relying on it,deep down your mindset is changed by wearing it or riding with your headlights on....( not having a go at anyone in particular , just trying to put across the other side of the coin...)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/b ... luorescent

Why are you so adamant that wearing hi vis gives you a certain mind set. Some of us just may have an extra brain cell or two and can work it out. Some of us might just wear it on the off chance that it just might not guaranteed give us a chance.

But yes there would be some who may ride differently because they are dayglo and in their subconscious mind they are hi vis therefore immortal.

It's the same for cagers with all the safety equipment, some will take more risk's because they feel safe, but some wont because they don't want a crash or actually like driving in a decent manner.

Bike head lights can get lost in amongst other vehicles headlights if they line up with the viewers line of sight. So rendering those potentially dangerous/useless in that situation

If anyone finds a Hi Vis onecy please let me know, my oldest is having her 18th birthday party in the very near future it's what dads are for :side:

cheers Spud

[Gedge]

I am adamant becausse the latest research suggests its true, peoples posts indicate that they modify their thinking/behaviour based upon it, and SMIDSY reports tend to showan alarming rate of disbelief by riders who have expected to be seen because they were wearing it..

Of someone can show unequivocal proof that Hi Viz works in all circumstances and that there is never a downside then I might change my mind..

around the world, millions of motorcyclists fare perfectly well without it...if it works so well, why arent all bikes Hi Viz? why arent all cars fitted with Hi Viz nose cones?....

[Redmurty]

I am adamant becausse the latest research suggests its true, peoples posts indicate that they modify their thinking/behaviour based upon it, and SMIDSY reports tend to showan alarming rate of disbelief by riders who have expected to be seen because they were wearing it..

Of someone can show unequivocal proof that Hi Viz works in all circumstances and that there is never a downside then I might change my mind..

around the world, millions of motorcyclists fare perfectly well without it...if it works so well, why arent all bikes Hi Viz? why arent all cars fitted with Hi Viz nose cones?....

It suggest does not state then.

If I get knocked off because some cager could not see me and I state that I could not believe that they could not see me does not confirm that my subconscious mind was working on the presumption that I was ultimately safer because I was in high vis therefore I could/did/have changed my riding style, and if I was not in high vis I may not of had the accident because I would of again altered my riding style.

WTF ? will always be asked because the rational mind is trying to work out why they are/have been flying down the road, how many of the people been involved in accident have immediately put there hands up and stated it was my fault mate.

If car manufacturers and there marketing department thought they could sell them they would instead they are putting increasing brighter lights on cars, or is that my eyes are just getting older.

Thank you for your reply, it was/is your mind set I'm interested in.

cheers Spud

[Gedge]

To avoid any more comments from other posters about 'people like you' ( without explaining what sort of people I am...I will just post this reply from another forum from a much respected motorcycling trainer...

there's been around 30 years of unthinking advice to wear hi-vis clothing and use day riding lights.

And even more unfortunately, motorcyclists have been keen to pick up the use of hi-vis and DRLs because their use seems to firmly off-load the blame for junction collisions onto the driver - rather than "I failed to spot the junction / anticipate he might pull out", we can say "the driver didn't look".

Why are riders so keen to believe this safety advice, when they'd reject a far more valid suggestion like "slow down and cover the brakes"?

I've been reading a book by Nobel Prize winning psychologist Daniel Kahneman called "Thinking, Fast and Slow", where he explains his concept of two systems that control the way we think. System 1 is fast, intuitive, and emotional; System 2 is slower, more deliberative, and more logical.

This everlasting debate falls firmly into an argument between the two as System 1 which looks for cause and effect by making educated guesses based on limited information, which is how we end up with people firmly believing they state the truth when they make a statement like "I can see riders wearing hi-vis further off so it's obvious it works".

System 2 is capable of evaluating these educated guesses that are the product of System 1, and can therefore override these impressions and intuitions where appropriate. We can go and look at 40 years of accident stats and see if there's been any change in the distribution of accidents; if hi-vis worked, you'd expect to see the % of accidents that occur at junctions fall. No figures I've been able to find show such a reduction. And then we can ask why that might be and we get to question the effectiveness of particular colours as a contrast with environment, if blocks of hi-vis colours can act as camouflage, the very ineffectiveness of hi-vis if the eye/brain system is 'seeing' in the first place, and finally risk compensation - behavioral changes by the wearer believing that it works.

Unfortunately, System 1 is also keen to believe things where only one side of the story is presented, just like official advice to wear hi-vis "because it makes you more visible".

And System 2 is lazy. Even when presented with a logical discussion which raises doubts about the effectiveness of hi-vis, it's easier to believe the intuitive System 1 because System 1 likes stories where there is no conflict. Kahneman says, "you will often find that knowing little makes it easier to fit everything you know into a coherent pattern". The result of this is that we can be more intuitively convinced of something the less information about it we have.

And that's why there are entire threads about hi-vis!

I sort of hope that I am people like him...but if posters prefer to get personal instead of perhaps learning something about this complicated subject then maybe now is a good time for me to bow out....

[Redmurty]

Cheers mate a very interesting read.

I just don't like blanket statements, that say's more about me than the people making those statements no doubt. :whistle:

cheers Spud

[Oop North John]

Cheers mate a very interesting read.
I just don't like blanket statements, that say's more about me than the people making those statements no doubt. :whistle:

Yes interesting, and quite thought provoking.

[wayne roome]

Hi Vis is not for me. I am 45yrs old with several hundreds of thousands of miles behind me and can say that i am incident free. Training with ROSPA/Bike Safe/IAM is far more visible (imo) as this can make you a better rider as far as rider positioning etc goes.

How many times have you pulled over for flashing headlights, two tones, blue lights emergency vehicle, only for another (usually car/van) vehicle user overtake you????

Highlight yourself as much as you like but if the vehicle users around you do not have the same attention span, then hi vis could be classed at useless bit of kit.

At the end of the day, if it makes you feel more secure and safe, go for it.

Ride safe everyone

[Redmurty]

I just wonder how many miles are covered by riders in hi viz incident free and how many junctions are crossed incident free and how many times other road users spot riders in high viz and change their course, speed or position accordingly.

The stats are only taken from people who have been in accidents and therefore do not and cannot show any of the above.

All road users need more education, but then you will never be able to take the human element out of the equation.

cheers Spud

[Gedge]

I just wonder how many miles are covered by riders in hi viz incident free and how many junctions are crossed incident free and how many times other road users spot riders in high viz and change their course, speed or position accordingly.

The stats are only taken from people who have been in accidents and therefore do not and cannot show any of the above.

All road users need more education, but then you will never be able to take the human element out of the equation.

cheers Spud

all very reasonable questions..but you also need to wonder how many of the same happened ( or didnt happen) to people NOT wearing Hi Viz...