Sleeping bag for touring

[Warthog]

Alun wrote:

The big disadvantage with down is if it gets wet it is absolutely bloody useless and takes forever to dry. That said, a wet synthetic bag is no more comfortable.

Overall, I tend to favour a down sleeping bag, what about you?

I favour synthetic.

Yes, they're bigger, and bulkier but, if wet, they may not be comfortable but they still retain a large part of they insulating qualities.

A word for those considering down bags.

I am not a fan of down bags from an ethical point of view. I almost bought down from a company called Alpkit. I was reading their site and found that the vast majority of down bags are filled with feathers harvested through live-plucking. Birds are plucked then put back to re-grow their feathers to then have those plucked too.

Personally, I couldn't justify that just to save some pannier space.

Some Eider-down bags are filled from feathers collected from nesting sites but, given the labour involved, these are mega expensive.

Alpkit had said they were looking for a supplier of feathers collected from birds killed for food. When that happens, I may reconsider.
I do commend their openness and proactive attempts to make their products from more ethical.

This is my personal point of view on the topic, but it is up to others to decide what they do: at least now you have some facts...

[Alun]

The ethical content of the cheaper down bags is usually zilch. Products from companies like RAB are far, far superior in components, construction, warm to weight ratio and in their ethical stance on the origin of the down (and the quality of the down). Generally speaking if the down is sourced in the 'east' the bag is cheap and you pay the extra price with your conscience.

Oh, and I've yet to sleep in a wet synthetic bag thats warm though I have slept in many wet synthetic bags.

[Warthog]

Alun wrote:

The ethical content of the cheaper down bags is usually zilch. Products from companies like RAB are far, far superior in components, construction, warm to weight ratio and in their ethical stance on the origin of the down (and the quality of the down). Generally speaking if the down is sourced in the 'east' the bag is cheap and you pay the extra price with your conscience.

Oh, and I've yet to sleep in a wet synthetic bag thats warm though I have slept in many wet synthetic bags.

I'd be interested to get information or assurances from manufacturers that their bags are filled with ethically sourced. I'd have thought it would be one of their major pitches: never read it on their sites when I was looking into down, mind.

In my case, Alpkit were quite up front that theirs might be live-plucked because they had difficulty actually assuring themselves that the down was ethically sourced. For a down bag company who make a point of trying to be ethical to then have difficulties in finding a supplier makes me wonder if any of the other mainstream manufacturers can say any better. In a conversation over the phone, one of their team basically said, that if your not careful, a supplier will just tell you it's ethically sourced to get you business, when it fact it's not.

There is a difference between saying "We know our bags are filled with ethically sourced down" and "Our supplier told us that it is ethically sourced down".

I don't know which camp Rab and the like may be in, just that Alpkit want to be in the former and weren't able to be at the time I was looking into it last year.

As for damp kit, fortunately, I've been spared a wet sleeping bag, but time and again I've heard it said that of two wet bags a synthetic will keep you warmer than a down. Not that I'm volunteering to do a back-to-back test of wet bags...

[Alun]

When I looked into the sourcing of down a few years back the better quality was from suppliers in Poland and Canada – a Canada Goose insulated jacket would make a week at the poles seam like a Hawaiian beach holiday.

Down from credible sources is very expensive and I would think that's what Alpkit mean – they can't find an ethical source at a price that would make their kit competitive.

The wet synthetic v the wet down bag theory is usually the argument put forward by gear testers who've only slept in the product in their bedroom with the window open on a damp night. And I know a few of them.

[Warthog]

Alun wrote:

When I looked into the sourcing of down a few years back the better quality was from suppliers in Poland and Canada – a Canada Goose insulated jacket would make a week at the poles seam like a Hawaiian beach holiday.

Down from credible sources is very expensive and I would think that's what Alpkit mean – they can't find an ethical source at a price that would make their kit competitive.

It is certainly encouraging to know that such suppliers exist, and aren't an urban (or should I say outdoors) myth. I would welcome a move to have ethically sourced down as a certified service, the same way some companies offer a GM free food assurance, or produce grown through Fair Trade agreements. Honestly, I think most people, whether buying sleeping bags, duvets, jackets or pillows are unaware of the practice of live-plucking: I certainly was.

In any case, I am now used to the extra size of my synthetic bag, as well as the cost benefit (it was much cheaper). When the time comes to replace it, I may well re-examine the down option: I hope it will be more transparent by then.

Alun wrote:

The wet synthetic v the wet down bag theory is usually the argument put forward by gear testers who've only slept in the product in their bedroom with the window open on a damp night. And I know a few of them.

That's fair enough: again, it is a shame that we, the consumers, aren't given a realistic picture: lots of woll being pulled over many eyes... and they wonder why people are cynical...

[McOo]

Another fan of Alpkit here, their Fat Aeric mats are excellent.

[scouse]

Alun wrote:

Oh, and I've yet to sleep in a wet synthetic bag thats warm though I have slept in many wet synthetic bags.

I have an antique Vango Expedition 3 season bag that is a huge old fashioned holo-fibre mummy bag without a zip and seems even bigger when packed... but I have had it since 1984.

It came with a guarantee to retain body heat even when wet... and it actually dries out with body heat as the insulation is one of the early hydrophilic ones so it dries quickly. It has a quick drying poly-cotton lining and I have had a tent ripped apart by a storm and the remains of the tent turned into a bender with some willow branches as my only shelter and crawled shivering into the wet bag to wake up the following morning toasty, warm and dry.

It cost me a small fortune in '84 and was their top of the range bag... so they must be out there ... we can't have gone backwards in technology ... can we ?

[E.T.]

On the subject of Down. My most recent research (for a Duvet for the bed admittedly) pointed toward Hungarian Goose down, with Siberian Goose down coming in second...whether it's "ethical" I have no idea

[backofbeyond]

Since I started camping (in the 70's) I've tried all sorts of sleeping bags but the main ones have always been down filled. Yes they have problems when they get wet but the advantage of more warmth per pack size has been enough to make me live with that.

If you're careful down bags can last a long time - I'm only on my third since the mid 70's so it makes the "sticker shock" when you buy them a little easier to live with. The first one got stolen in Spain, the second was retired after a long life but is still around and the third, bought in 2003, still looks pretty much like new.

I do tend to overspec the bags when I buy them though - my current Rab is rated down to -20C. In full mummy mode it's much too warm for a European summer but has a full length zip so it can be opened out and used like a throwover.

On the ethics of acquiring down, this is what Rab say on their website about how they get theirs:

The down we use is a natural by-product of ducks and geese that are traditionally raised in a free-range environment, primarily for food production.

[Warthog]

I recently posted a review and test of my synthetic bag as well as some links to reduced bags for sale.

This prompted me to have another look at what I could find on the live-plucking issue. It seems that Alpkit have some nice letters to their fans on their website.

It seems that, despite not having had any letters of assurance, evidence points to down coming from birds raised for food, in China. I didn't see anything suggesting that the farms were free-range or battery but it is encouraging!

About a third of the way down