Covid 19 Coronavirus

[Tonibe63]

Every death is a tragedy and 100k deaths is horrific and it is going to increase. Although the photo/figures pertain to the UK I do think many places around the World are yet to experience the storm that we are currently in, the data on the 'kent' strain is showing it to be 50% easier to spread and has a 30% increased death rate. Other strains that are building are yet to have any meaningful data collected.
My hopes are that all Governments will learn from the UK (it has yet to hit Europe which has no internal borders) but sadly I think many will continue the political games instead of serving their population ..... I really really hope to be proved wrong.
I spoke to my Daughter at the weekend who is an ITU ward deputy Sister and has a very calm and clinical personality. Their ward has increased from 34 to 38 beds and is currently taking patients from London (we are in the Midlands). Due to a sickness/self isolation rate of 14 staff out of 38 they are having to use 1 ITU trained nurse to every 2 non ITU trained staff taken from other departments, usually it is 1 ITU trained nurse to 1 patient and in her words is getting dangerous. Their job is to preserve life but now they are holding phones for dying patients to say goodbye to relatives, once that patient dies there is another waiting for the bed. My Daughter said the big difference in this wave is that many of the deaths are in the 30 to 60 age group. Some of their 'overspill' is now being shipped up the Country. Many of the non ITU staff are at emotional breaking point and many trained ITU staff are too, this is the storm the UK is in.
In Europe, Portugal has reported being overwhelmed and there are stories of patients being transported to Spain. Portugal has also reported an increase in the 'kent' strain and their data on positive tested patients is sky rocketing, Europe needs to up it's game massively.
Forget holidays abroad for this year.

[daveuprite]

Every death is a tragedy and 100k deaths is horrific and it is going to increase. Although the photo/figures pertain to the UK I do think many places around the World are yet to experience the storm that we are currently in, the data on the 'kent' strain is showing it to be 50% easier to spread and has a 30% increased death rate. Other strains that are building are yet to have any meaningful data collected.
My hopes are that all Governments will learn from the UK (it has yet to hit Europe which has no internal borders) but sadly I think many will continue the political games instead of serving their population ..... I really really hope to be proved wrong.
I spoke to my Daughter at the weekend who is an ITU ward deputy Sister and has a very calm and clinical personality. Their ward has increased from 34 to 38 beds and is currently taking patients from London (we are in the Midlands). Due to a sickness/self isolation rate of 14 staff out of 38 they are having to use 1 ITU trained nurse to every 2 non ITU trained staff taken from other departments, usually it is 1 ITU trained nurse to 1 patient and in her words is getting dangerous. Their job is to preserve life but now they are holding phones for dying patients to say goodbye to relatives, once that patient dies there is another waiting for the bed. My Daughter said the big difference in this wave is that many of the deaths are in the 30 to 60 age group. Some of their 'overspill' is now being shipped up the Country. Many of the non ITU staff are at emotional breaking point and many trained ITU staff are too, this is the storm the UK is in.
In Europe, Portugal has reported being overwhelmed and there are stories of patients being transported to Spain. Portugal has also reported an increase in the 'kent' strain and their data on positive tested patients is sky rocketing, Europe needs to up it's game massively.
Forget holidays abroad for this year.

Best wishes to your daughter, Toni. I can't begin to imagine what she's experiencing each day. It must be awful.

Things in France are not good. 3 million cases (total), 20-25,000 new cases each day, 74,000 deaths.

The response was pretty good in the first wave. A proper hard lockdown. We needed signed, dated paper attestations for every movement and the gendarmes did checks. Even the quiet countryside was a ghost town. The second peak was strict too, although schools were back as well as some non-essential shops. And we've had a curfew for months (now 6pm nationwide). But it all feels far more relaxed now and although mask wearing is good, distancing in shops etc is terrible. The boulangerie is very good. No more than 2 inside the shop, queue outside etc, but in the supermarkets so many people just don't bother. You try to keep a couple of meters from everyone and they just reach for things across you and pass by within inches.

Rumours are flying around about a third major lockdown imminently, but Macron has put off his announcement until after 30th Jan. We'll see.

For me, the most incredible thing I've seen recently was the Ryanair advert - 'Just Jab and Go'. Possibly one of the least responsible covid-related strategies since Sunak paid people to cough all over each other in restaurants...

[flamair]

A bit of perspective needed.

Every 62 days 100000 people die in the UK on average. There have been 100000 'with Covid' deaths in 10 months.

Most of the Covid deaths are in the older age range. Many of those suffering have 2 or 3 plus other morbidities and/or are seriously overweight/smokers etc.

Covid isn't very nice. But in the same ten months since Covid kicked in 135-140 thousand folk have died from cancer, many of these children and young adults. Goodness knows how many more will die over the next few years due to Covid preventing early diagnosis. Does anyone care about the cancer situation? You wouldn't think so watching the news.

0.3% of the UK has been hospitalised since March due to Covid (Or they've had Covid along with other issues in a lot of cases).
0.13% have died with Covid ... Though over half of these were over 80 and in some cases Covid was only a factor and not the reason they died.
The scenes in hospital that are busy with patients are not really about how bad Covid is. They are about how poor the NHS is.

This isn't about deaths. It's about the government protecting it's political arse.

You have this and previous government's complete lack of investment in proper facilities and equipment in the NHS for the last 4 decades to blame for this debacle.
Quick to point the finger of blame at the public for going about their business, when in fact such a problem has been predicted and indeed expected for many years and not a single attempt has been made to strengthen and expand the NHS. Indeed the opposite is true, with budgets cut and facilities reduced, despite the NHS often being at 100% + capacity at this time of year.
You reap what you sow. Sadly successive governments have sown precious little in the way of investment in the NHS and now the general public are not only reaping the consequences, but we're actually being blamed for it.



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[simonw]

A bit of perspective needed.

Every 62 days 100000 people die in the UK on average. There have been 100000 'with Covid' deaths in 10 months.

Most of the Covid deaths are in the older age range. Many of those suffering have 2 or 3 plus other morbidities and/or are seriously overweight/smokers etc.

Covid isn't very nice. But in the same ten months since Covid kicked in 135-140 thousand folk have died from cancer, many of these children and young adults. Goodness knows how many more will die over the next few years due to Covid preventing early diagnosis. Does anyone care about the cancer situation? You wouldn't think so watching the news.

0.3% of the UK has been hospitalised since March due to Covid (Or they've had Covid along with other issues in a lot of cases).
0.13% have died with Covid ... Though over half of these were over 80 and in some cases Covid was only a factor and not the reason they died.
The scenes in hospital that are busy with patients are not really about how bad Covid is. They are about how poor the NHS is.

This isn't about deaths. It's about the government protecting it's political arse.

You have this and previous government's complete lack of investment in proper facilities and equipment in the NHS for the last 4 decades to blame for this debacle.
Quick to point the finger of blame at the public for going about their business, when in fact such a problem has been predicted and indeed expected for many years and not a single attempt has been made to strengthen and expand the NHS. Indeed the opposite is true, with budgets cut and facilities reduced, despite the NHS often being at 100% + capacity at this time of year.
You reap what you sow. Sadly successive governments have sown precious little in the way of investment in the NHS and now the general public are not only reaping the consequences, but we're actually being blamed for it.



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This is so wrong on so many levels that I can't even begin to respond properly to it. I suggest you get yourself into an ITU somewhere near you and see for yourself the staff breaking down and the cross section of patients slowly dying before you float such ludicrous and ill-informed nonsense. Go back to facebook and the Daily Mail and get your daily bullshit fix from there.

[flamair]

A bit of perspective needed.

Every 62 days 100000 people die in the UK on average. There have been 100000 'with Covid' deaths in 10 months.

Most of the Covid deaths are in the older age range. Many of those suffering have 2 or 3 plus other morbidities and/or are seriously overweight/smokers etc.

Covid isn't very nice. But in the same ten months since Covid kicked in 135-140 thousand folk have died from cancer, many of these children and young adults. Goodness knows how many more will die over the next few years due to Covid preventing early diagnosis. Does anyone care about the cancer situation? You wouldn't think so watching the news.

0.3% of the UK has been hospitalised since March due to Covid (Or they've had Covid along with other issues in a lot of cases).
0.13% have died with Covid ... Though over half of these were over 80 and in some cases Covid was only a factor and not the reason they died.
The scenes in hospital that are busy with patients are not really about how bad Covid is. They are about how poor the NHS is.

This isn't about deaths. It's about the government protecting it's political arse.

You have this and previous government's complete lack of investment in proper facilities and equipment in the NHS for the last 4 decades to blame for this debacle.
Quick to point the finger of blame at the public for going about their business, when in fact such a problem has been predicted and indeed expected for many years and not a single attempt has been made to strengthen and expand the NHS. Indeed the opposite is true, with budgets cut and facilities reduced, despite the NHS often being at 100% + capacity at this time of year.
You reap what you sow. Sadly successive governments have sown precious little in the way of investment in the NHS and now the general public are not only reaping the consequences, but we're actually being blamed for it.



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This is so wrong on so many levels that I can't even begin to respond properly to it. I suggest you get yourself into an ITU somewhere near you and see for yourself the staff breaking down and the cross section of patients slowly dying before you float such ludicrous and ill-informed nonsense. Go back to facebook and the Daily Mail and get your daily bullshit fix from there.

No, it really isn't. You have clearly misunderstood the entire post.

It contains only facts. No emotion though, which I suspect is where you're struggling.

If the NHS had been strengthened as it should have been when, in 2016 the government were warned a pandemic was highly likely (the current government dismissed the findings as so unlikely it didn't warrant to be taken seriously) this mess wouldn't have been half so bad. Forewarned is forearmed.

Pressure on NHS staff has been bad every winter for decades. This year far worse than ever. What would have made a difference would have been a plan in place. Extra ventilators already available etc etc.

Staggering around knee jerk reacting with a health service already on its knees each winter to a virus threat that wasn't taken seriously as far back as you care to remember was never going to be very successful.

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[simonw]

It contains only facts. No emotion though, which I suspect is where you're struggling.

No, definitely not struggling. The only emotion I have is exasperation at poor reporting and interpretation that so many people and organisations do.

If the NHS had been strengthened as it should have been when, in 2016 the government were warned a pandemic was highly likely (the current government dismissed the findings as so unlikely it didn't warrant to be taken seriously) this mess wouldn't have been half so bad. Forewarned is forearmed.

Whilst it's definitely true that the NHS would have benefited from additional investment, there is no amount of affordable investment that would have delivered the capacity necessary for a pandemic. And if there was sufficient capacity, it would have lain idle for many years and we'd have seen copy-selling headines about the amount of unncessarily wasted money that had been spent. I do agree that it appears pandemic planning has definitely been found wanting though.

Pressure on NHS staff has been bad every winter for decades. This year far worse than ever. What would have made a difference would have been a plan in place. Extra ventilators already available etc etc.

Yep, winter is a surprise to them every year. This is a fault partly of government but also significantly of the NHS itself. Its winter planning for some care sectors often doesn't start until September, which is too late (for example). Extra ventilators is actually the least of it. The bigger problem is available physical capacity and resource. National and local planning was actually quite good once the magnitude of the problem was realised (I agree, later than was ideal).

I don't think people outside of acute hospitals really truly understand quite how horrifying it is in them at the moment. To say "this isn't about deaths, it's about the government protecting its political arse" doesn't make any sense, since "this" is undefined. I am confident that the pandemic has been about deaths, and that the government (like every government) has taken many steps to "protect its arse". (Your stat about cancer deaths is correct - c165,000 die annually, though this is the normal figure and therefore has nothing to do with covid.)

Staggering around knee jerk reacting with a health service already on its knees each winter to a virus threat that wasn't taken seriously as far back as you care to remember was never going to be very successful.

Completely agree.

But, without wanting to drag this out too much, there are some massive factual inaccuracies in your original message. A lot of people care a lot about the elective backlog and are doing as much as they can to safely address it under the current constraints, and planning ways in which it can be addressed once the current admissions reduce substantially.

It's also factually incorrect to say that it's mostly "old" people dying. This new wave has seen a considerable increase in deaths and serious illness in the 30-60 year age group, with no underlying health conditions. (As an aside, there is some statistical evidence that smoking actually reduces the infection risk, ironically.)

This is a complex state of affairs, and as much as the keyboard warriors and media outlets (whose only interest is selling their wares, to be absolutely clear) would like to distill it all to a few easy to repeat soundbites, turn it into some anarchic rallying cry or add it to the list of conspiracy theories, the situation is far more multifaceted. There have undoubtedly been failings in government through incompetence, indecision and other reasons. There have also probably been some bad decisions made but with good intent and with the best information available at the time. And equally undoubtedly there have been large sections of the public who far from simply "going about their business" have shown reckless disregard to the seriousness of the situation. There have been many too who have failed to grasp that the need to take the necessary precautions is constant and without exception. No just leaning over someone in the supermarket to grab a block of cheese. No visiting their cousin because, well, it's only their cousin and they're fine and lockdown's for everyone else.

[flamair]

It contains only facts. No emotion though, which I suspect is where you're struggling.

No, definitely not struggling. The only emotion I have is exasperation at poor reporting and interpretation that so many people and organisations do.

If the NHS had been strengthened as it should have been when, in 2016 the government were warned a pandemic was highly likely (the current government dismissed the findings as so unlikely it didn't warrant to be taken seriously) this mess wouldn't have been half so bad. Forewarned is forearmed.

Whilst it's definitely true that the NHS would have benefited from additional investment, there is no amount of affordable investment that would have delivered the capacity necessary for a pandemic. And if there was sufficient capacity, it would have lain idle for many years and we'd have seen copy-selling headines about the amount of unncessarily wasted money that had been spent. I do agree that it appears pandemic planning has definitely been found wanting though.

Pressure on NHS staff has been bad every winter for decades. This year far worse than ever. What would have made a difference would have been a plan in place. Extra ventilators already available etc etc.

Yep, winter is a surprise to them every year. This is a fault partly of government but also significantly of the NHS itself. Its winter planning for some care sectors often doesn't start until September, which is too late (for example). Extra ventilators is actually the least of it. The bigger problem is available physical capacity and resource. National and local planning was actually quite good once the magnitude of the problem was realised (I agree, later than was ideal).

I don't think people outside of acute hospitals really truly understand quite how horrifying it is in them at the moment. To say "this isn't about deaths, it's about the government protecting its political arse" doesn't make any sense, since "this" is undefined. I am confident that the pandemic has been about deaths, and that the government (like every government) has taken many steps to "protect its arse". (Your stat about cancer deaths is correct - c165,000 die annually, though this is the normal figure and therefore has nothing to do with covid.)

Staggering around knee jerk reacting with a health service already on its knees each winter to a virus threat that wasn't taken seriously as far back as you care to remember was never going to be very successful.

Completely agree.

But, without wanting to drag this out too much, there are some massive factual inaccuracies in your original message. A lot of people care a lot about the elective backlog and are doing as much as they can to safely address it under the current constraints, and planning ways in which it can be addressed once the current admissions reduce substantially.

It's also factually incorrect to say that it's mostly "old" people dying. This new wave has seen a considerable increase in deaths and serious illness in the 30-60 year age group, with no underlying health conditions. (As an aside, there is some statistical evidence that smoking actually reduces the infection risk, ironically.)

This is a complex state of affairs, and as much as the keyboard warriors and media outlets (whose only interest is selling their wares, to be absolutely clear) would like to distill it all to a few easy to repeat soundbites, turn it into some anarchic rallying cry or add it to the list of conspiracy theories, the situation is far more multifaceted. There have undoubtedly been failings in government through incompetence, indecision and other reasons. There have also probably been some bad decisions made but with good intent and with the best information available at the time. And equally undoubtedly there have been large sections of the public who far from simply "going about their business" have shown reckless disregard to the seriousness of the situation. There have been many too who have failed to grasp that the need to take the necessary precautions is constant and without exception. No just leaning over someone in the supermarket to grab a block of cheese. No visiting their cousin because, well, it's only their cousin and they're fine and lockdown's for everyone else.

With respect you cannot stop a virus with lockdown without a huge price paid elsewhere.

Nowhere does your post address anything but Covid - which has been one of the biggest problems from some of the medical profession and certainly the government.

If you look at the numbers aged between 30-60 that have been seriously ill with Covid as a percentage of those of that age that have had the disease the number of deaths are small. The number of deaths of young fit people as a percentage of the population is tiny - less than from cancer.

If you look at how the reaction to Covid has affected the health of every person in the country (especially those with other serious illnesses) you are forced to the conclusion that only Covid matters. ...

I have personally experienced the death of several people to cancer for example. Of course, you can't pass that on. But, we still accept several hundred thousands deaths from it each year without complaint.

Covid will just have to become one of those things we accept I'm afraid. The consequences of not doing so are far worse than Covid itself.



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[simonw]

Flamair, we both have valid points, but I fear to debate them here will be too time consuming and will piss a lot of other people off! Perhaps we can do it over a beer. Once lockdown is lifted of course

[flamair]

Flamair, we both have valid points, but I fear to debate them here will be too time consuming and will piss a lot of other people off! Perhaps we can do it over a beer. Once lockdown is lifted of course

Agreed.

My dad always said a couple of things that've stuck in my mind. (he died at 68 after a lifetime of ill health)

Firstly, to live life with hindsight would allow you to avoid all your mistakes....

The other thing was "You can't run healthcare or education from a balance sheet, without some harsh compromises"

Let's hope for a speedy end to the current crises - for everyone's sake.

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[SteveWat]

I tested positive on 3rd January, a couple of days later my daughter tested positive then a few days later my wife tested positive.
It was probably the Kent Strain.
It wasn’t very pleasant.....mostly Flu-like aches, a fair bit of coughing, fatigue and loss of appetite. Probably my wife had it the worse.
I guess we were lucky.
I always backed myself to not be that seriously ill if I caught it, I’m pretty robust and I’m not really prone to illness.
Anyway, as a family we didn’t fancy putting our lives on hold, so we did continue to get out and about and mixed a little bit more than we should have done with other family members that don’t live with us.
We had regular COVID tests and I tested positive before I really had any symptoms. Once we’d tested positive we self isolated religiously and hit the Lemsip and Night Nurse.
Now I feel great, I feel that I’ve self-inoculated by getting it.
It could have turned out worse, but the odds were in our favour.
If I felt vulnerable I’d have had a different attitude.