EU. In or out?

[Dutchgit]

The ultimate agenda of TPTB is a European super state with one government, one financial system, one tax system, one army and one way of life.

No thanks.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

What a load of tosh that is.
You do what most out voters do: Make up facts and truths and try to scare people who think something else is better.

.

Tosh. Hmmm.
That's an interesting comment coming from anybody advocating staying in the EU.
I view it as the lesser evil.
We already have an EU judicial system that frequently over rides decisions made by the UK's high court.
I can't comment on that as I stay away from such things as far as possible
Laws determined by the EU and the total inability to effectively control our own borders.
Working hours directive/paid overtime isn't a bad thing I thought. (just to name a thing)
You have effective border control right now and it's not likely to end in the forseeable future.There will still be free travel. If you think that'll change as soon as Brexit happens you'll be disappointed to hear that's not the case.
Eventually the UK will use the Euro as the independent pound is deeply resented by other EU states, especially those that have dire economic problems cause by the inability to control their own currencies.
Who says you'll lose the Pound Sterling ? Same with the border control, those were negotiated to stay in place years ago so why would that suddenly change if Britain stays in the EU ?(or doesn't for that matter)
In order to work cohesively the tax systems must ultimately be harmonised across EU member states to avoid tax evasion and financial migration by companies and individuals.
Not a bad thing now is it ? It's only fair that all companies and individuals pay the same rates (as per category) so they (companies especially) can't get away by producing in one country, avoid paying tax there because their haed office is located elsewhere.
The EU have clearly stated that the goal is for a fully integrated EU military. Who will have the ultimate control of this standing army? The EU expansionist policies have already been the cause of retaliation by Russia.
Again: Is that a bad thing ? a bigger player will have more leverage.
I doubt Russia or any other country/alliance is willing to start world war three as it's likely to cost more than it will bring them. Too much money is at stake so what is the problem?

For the EU to work there must be ever closer ties in all areas. The problem with this grand scheme is that one cannot compare the members of the club as being in any way equal in many fundamental areas. Within the EU there will always be wealthier members subsidising the less wealthy. Similar arguments are valid for all aspects of the EU. It just is not possible long term to have inequalities within the system. This is the EU's biggest failing. Like all great socialist ideals it just simply does not work.
I see it as a family sort of thing: There's mum and dad who bring in the (most) money so they take care of the lesser family members, in turn they'll have more say over what goes where, it just needs to be well balanced (and I'd agree that that's the tricky bit.)
Certainly not for the benefit of the working people. I can however work very well for those holding the reins of power. Ultimately that is what this is all about. Money and power for the elite few.
I fully agree on that but that's where the world went pear shaped. Unfortunately it doesn't look like it's about to change in the near future so best make do with what you've got. Sad but I see no change for the better.
The world would become a better place if trading in finances would stop being so lucrative.

[scutty]

We already have an EU judicial system that frequently over rides decisions made by the UK's high court. Laws determined by the EU and the total inability to effectively control our own borders.

Let me just separate those 2 issues - our membership of the European Court of Human Rights isn't going to change. It is not dependant on our membership of the European Union and is not relevant to the referendum. Leave Campaign mention this on a regular basis and stoke up support using it but membership will not cease if the country votes to leave the EU. Secondly you mentioned control of our borders - a hugely contentious issue in this referendum. The problem is, and what the Leave campaigners never mention, is what would change if the country votes to leave the EU? We are currently not part of the Schengen area and we check passports of all arrivals to the UK (smuggled people that bypass this check would still bypass any future changes so can be ignored in this discussion). We do currently have freedom of movement of EU citizens and many do live here. However, if the country votes to leave the EU we would, no doubt, attempt to stay in the EEA (as Norway) or at very least the Single Market (like Switzerland) as nearly 50% of our exports go to Single Market countries. But here's the punch - Norway and Switzerland are not only open to all EU citizens but are both part of the Schengen region - they both have less border controls than the UK has now. Anyone that thinks the UK will simply move into the EEA or Single Market and still be outside of any free movement of people is dreaming.


Eventually the UK will use the Euro as the independent pound is deeply resented by other EU states, especially those that have dire economic problems cause by the inability to control their own currencies.

I don't believe that that is inevitable - what could possibly force the UK to give up it's currency? We are already in the EU now, what more would need to change to result in that requirement. And for sure, that would kick off another referendum if it ever happened.

In order to work cohesively the tax systems must ultimately be harmonised across EU member states to avoid tax evasion and financial migration by companies and individuals.

How is this not a really great thing - no more tax evasion for the benifit of offshore tax dodging shareholders? If you do business in a country the you should pay tax in that country to support the state that has educated your staff, provides the roads you use for deliveries etc etc etc.

The EU have clearly stated that the goal is for a fully integrated EU military. Who will have the ultimate control of this standing army? The EU expansionist policies have already been the cause of retaliation by Russia.

Again, how is this a bad thing. If Russia feels it can bully democratic countries into not doing what their populations want through fear, intimidation and state sponsored invasion then a strong response is surely a good thing imho?


For the EU to work there must be ever closer ties in all areas. The problem with this grand scheme is that one cannot compare the members of the club as being in any way equal in many fundamental areas. Within the EU there will always be wealthier members subsidising the less wealthy. Similar arguments are valid for all aspects of the EU. It just is not possible long term to have inequalities within the system. This is the EU's biggest failing. Like all great socialist ideals it just simply does not work. Certainly not for the benefit of the working people.

Do you not think that the early parts of the EU have worked for some of the initial benifitors of EU money? Ireland for example? American-initiated credit crunch economic issues aside, it has been good for Spain and Portugal and Italy. They were all moved into virtually neutral contribution status (i.e they pay in about what they receive back). Thats the dream - leverage richer european countries to help build up the others so we are all successful, stable, safer countries - sounds like a plan worth supporting to me. Better than building a wall and telling everyone else to f*ck off.

I can however work very well for those holding the reins of power. Ultimately that is what this is all about. Money and power for the elite few.

Sadly, I don't see that changing no matter how you vote

However - I am not a fan of the current EU. I think it has gone way beyond it's original mandate and interferes in citizen's lives way too much. I would like to stay in the EU but mandate our MEPs and government to start to propose major changes and reductions of the EU's powers. We have to be in the EU to change it, if we walk away we will never get a say.

Maybe if we stopped sending clowns as MEPs the EU might stop being a circus.

[dave448]

I can however work very well for those holding the reins of power. Ultimately that is what this is all about. Money and power for the elite few.
this the question ...distilled out ..you have to ask yourself ...do you really want to be led by that bunch here ..or that bunch over there..
i can guarantee ...one thing is for certain, power will be focussed centrally and there will be a reckoning.
Ze germans want our financial centre and the french can't understand why their economy is shyte but know that when in bed with the germans ..it doesn't matter ...just yell about greece and hope nobody notices the huuuge pile of doodoo in spain portugal italy.. imo

saw this in the daily wail today http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3603793
B)

[scutty]

You realise that Spain is outperforming the UK in growth over the last 3 quarters?

If the country votes to leave the EU I do hope there is a window of time during which I can select a country I want to go and live in. Having lived out of the UK for a few years I know what improvements in life style that can bring.

[dave448]

You realise that Spain is outperforming the UK in growth over the last 3 quarters?

Spain recorded a Government Debt to GDP of 99.20 percent of the country's Gross Domestic Product in 2015. Government Debt to GDP in Spain averaged 51.97 percent from 1980 until 2015, reaching an all time high of 99.30 percent in 2014 and a record low of 16.60 percent in 1980.

spain has current account deficit (10% approx trade gap) i.e. it imports more than it exports so as the economy is expanding its adding to its debt pile as well
source http://www.tradingeconomics.com/spain/balance-of-trade
imo
B)

[Scott_rider]

A friend of mine works for a small company that has to employ specilists from abroad because they can't successfully recruit in their sector from within the UK. Yesterday they had confirmation that they could employ an Australian economist, aged 31 years, on £82k per year, based in central London.

She is, apparently, highly-qualified and squeeky clean but it took 7 months for her...yes 7 months...to get a work visa to come to the UK and it's only valid for 5 years :huh: . Over that time they worked out that she'll pay £135,000 in Tax and National Insurance and she'll probably spend the rest of her nett money, £55,000 per year, on living expenses and buying things in London.

Contrast that with a Romaniabulgarianslovak gypsy who can just come here permanently with an EU passport and start working straightaway, probably take more out from the UK than they put it, and the whole system seems bonkers...I'm OUT (thumbs)

[dave448]

woaaaa ..i'm findin there is another bonkers bit..
economist, aged 31 years, on £82k per year

buuut wat do i know.. hmy:

[Scott_rider]

woaaaa ..i'm findin there is another bonkers bit..
economist, aged 31 years, on £82k per year

buuut wat do i know.. hmy:

Yes, I had to question them on that one...I originally thought they'd got the figures the wrong way round and they meant £28k per year...but no, a whopping £82k was correct...plus expenses... :woohoo:

In fairness, I think the term economist is probably a very simple word to describe what she's actually going to be doing for them, which I have absolutely no concept of.

[Redmurty]

For the EU to work there must be ever closer ties in all areas. The problem with this grand scheme is that one cannot compare the members of the club as being in any way equal in many fundamental areas. Within the EU there will always be wealthier members subsidising the less wealthy. Similar arguments are valid for all aspects of the EU. It just is not possible long term to have inequalities within the system. This is the EU's biggest failing. Like all great socialist ideals it just simply does not work.
I see it as a family sort of thing: There's mum and dad who bring in the (most) money so they take care of the lesser family members, in turn they'll have more say over what goes where, it just needs to be well balanced (and I'd agree that that's the tricky bit.)

SO WHAT THE FLYING FLOCK IS HAPPENING TO GREECE......

Really been looked after them poor sods, been let down by the bigger brothers in the game been let down by themselves. They should never been allowed to join.

I've seen this argument before about bringing in poorer countries and looking after them what a load of pooh the only reason they bring in new countries is to keep trying to get bigger markets to bolster up what appears to be a very good market. All well and good till it all has a brain fart and starts falling apart as it already is

United states of Europe army, why do we need that we have NATO

in fact why do we need a UNITED STATES OF EUROPE at all ?

we are better out whether that cost us or not take any pain that may come now and be on firm ground when the real shit hits the fan when it all goes tits up and that's not a IF BUT WHEN.....

Cheers Spud

[Mawnanian]

A friend of mine works for a small company that has to employ specilists from abroad because they can't successfully recruit in their sector from within the UK. Yesterday they had confirmation that they could employ an Australian economist, aged 31 years, on £82k per year, based in central London.

She is, apparently, highly-qualified and squeeky clean but it took 7 months for her...yes 7 months...to get a work visa to come to the UK and it's only valid for 5 years :huh: . Over that time they worked out that she'll pay £135,000 in Tax and National Insurance and she'll probably spend the rest of her nett money, £55,000 per year, on living expenses and buying things in London.

Contrast that with a Romaniabulgarianslovak gypsy who can just come here permanently with an EU passport and start working straightaway, probably take more out from the UK than they put it, and the whole system seems bonkers...I'm OUT (thumbs)

If the Romanians and Slavs you're so disparaging about earn £82k a year they'll pay the same as she does. Of course most of them won't, they'll be doing menial tasks that nobody else wants to do but are far more useful to us than juggling figures around so that big that business can make more profit and avoid paying the taxes that you mention. Plus the Aussie could probably get a perfectly good job back home if she wanted to, she doesn't need to come here. Plus there would be little difference in the situation whether in or out of the EU.
You obviously have your reasons for voting out but I don't see any argument for brexit in what you say here.