EU. In or out?

[scutty]

I stopped clicking that link when I got to www.DailyMail.....

[AndyB]

If we could have done all those things without the EU why didn't we do them before we signed up? Why do so many people complain about legislation that's been put in place to improve the lives of everyone and where will those billions we save by leaving be spent?

The first part is obvious in that nobody wanted to spend the money, the second part is that certain sections of the media tell us that EU laws rip away our right to decide our own future but the third part is the difficult one and I can't wait for Boris to let us know.

[AndyB]

A lot of arguments here for staying in the EU based on statistics and such but all i know is what i can see with my own eyes in my home town. Absolute urban decay. Most shops are boarded up, the only hospital gone, not enough houseing for the growing population, only one factory where there once was dozens, no hope for younsters finding work, small business going under every day. Most of the pubs gone. People depending on welfare handouts, and foodbanks ! CHRIST its not the 1940s. Now i know this isent all the falt of the EU but i havent seen a shred of evidence of any EU help. Iam fairly well travelled in western Europe and ive yet to come across a town there in such a state as here and some of those countrys are supposed to be bankrupt ?

Personally I'd blame a couple of decades of British governments selling our assets to win votes by reducing taxes for your local problems rather than the EU.

[92kk k100lt 193214]

A lot of arguments here for staying in the EU based on statistics and such but all i know is what i can see with my own eyes in my home town. Absolute urban decay. Most shops are boarded up, the only hospital gone, not enough houseing for the growing population, only one factory where there once was dozens, no hope for younsters finding work, small business going under every day. Most of the pubs gone. People depending on welfare handouts, and foodbanks ! CHRIST its not the 1940s. Now i know this isent all the falt of the EU but i havent seen a shred of evidence of any EU help. Iam fairly well travelled in western Europe and ive yet to come across a town there in such a state as here and some of those countrys are supposed to be bankrupt ?

A problem I see, being self employed, is the absence of infrastructure, bureaucracy and red tape in trying to establish businesses off the beaten track. For some reason every little place I go see in Europe has small local business that seem to thrive better than in this part of the world. You try to set up business over here and you are savaged by high rates, high fixed costs for utilities, high insurance costs, high labour taxes imposed on employers for paying wages, high employer insurance, high VAT, absence of good communications, a postal system beyond belief and often poor broadband. Why for example, can I get product from mainland Europe at low postal costs but from UK most places either refuse to post or won't because they say its too expensive? Or why, when I wanted something recently, was it bid to £450 in UK on eBay in an auction, but an identical product I was able to secure from Luxembourg on eBay auction, for €400 plus €15 postage. Only because UK buyers don't seem to bid outside the UK. And to cap it all it was made in Glasgow!

France has little cafes and coffee places in every little village, manage to provide toilets, etc and meet EU regulations on these things, but in this part of the world we say EU doesn't allow it. Maybe it's a question of interpretation but since we find these all over Europe maybe the issue is at home. I too look at so many places in summer in outlying villages that are crying out for some attractions but are missing because its not economic to provide them.

High fuel costs hugely disadvantage rural tourism, especially in outlying areas. A car tax system with a higher annual road tax and lower fuel cost that does not change the exchequer returns would have a big benefit to tourists and also domestic tourists. UK pays 99p for diesel, but pay 99 cent in Ireland, France and many other countries. At times that represents a 40% higher price. But that's not EU policy. High fuel costs are a big tax on isolation and distance in regions that are too sparsely populated to support good public transport. Factor in weather and it makes it extremely hard to compete.

We complain of VAT but it's up at 20% in most of Europe.

Ireland would have been doomed if it were not for tourism. Remote regions of the UK, especially Scotland and Northern Ireland and also Wales would also be similarly affected and offer some of the most beautiful places. The attraction is not sunshine and beaches but goes much deeper and is therefore less dependent on weather. These regions should also be attractive to those who offer internet based services, either electronically or by way of mail, they offer by far the best quality of life and living conditions. Any good writer or artist or composer goes to live where they feel inspired and it's not usually the middle of a city.

I don't see the EU helping these either and having spent some of my time in France last summer looking at how they work the villages are not subject to centralised control. A small village has the 'mairie' or mayor and decisions are made within the village, not the high street of a city 100 miles away by someone who probably doesn't even know where the village is. A bigger village has the 'hotel de ville' or town hall and again decisions are made locally. The municipal camp site is run locally but it spins off business to the small local shops, bakery, restaurant, pub, gift shop etc. You find a facilities building that has good toilets, showers etc and a friendliness that's hard to beat. For this to happen one must take back the local control, EU or no EU, other countries do it in the EU so why not us? Sure, our climate is not right for too much camping but anyone I know would happily support hostel type accommodation even in winter that offers a huge opportunity. A place not too far from me organises weekends in winter for mind and body and its a case of a local artist, hostel owner, food producers, restaurant and others getting together to make a very good and economical package where they all get a bite of the cherry. Of course, the internet is your market.

I don't for one moment think one can compete with the big cities, but I put it in perspective like this. You generally only go to see the Mona Lisa once in your lifetime but you can go to Antrim or Strangford Lough, Wales, Scotland or places like that year after year. In the city your 50 guests on their once in a lifetime trip arrive all together in a coach and stop for an allotted half hour, in rural places your 50 guests arrive one or two at a time and linger longer and most importantly are much more likely to return.

That's my tuppence worth.

[ttproducts]

I'm In. I found this earlier:

"What did the EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from:-

providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.

Simon Sweeney,

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"

[-Ralph-]

Good post there from 92kk k100lt 193214, it reminds me of a post earlier that said we are not culturally suited to EU membership. Take motorcycle tests for instance, the EU law doesn't say you need to retest at 19 and 21 years old, we interpreted it that way, decided it was necessary and implemented it.

The French largely ignore any EU law that doesn't suit them. The smoking ban case in point. Disabled accessibility laws. Both ignored in bars and cafes all over the country.

Britains approach to EU law is not going to change though, it's the way we are, and so if we remain in the EU that will continue.

[Old Git Ray]

I'm In. I found this earlier:

"What did the EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from:-

providing 57% of our trade;

...................

you missed:

Removing our right to enforce our own laws;

Adding numerous layers of government;

Making us eat straight cucumbers:

etc...etc.
-----------------------

This is just from the top of my head, not from some professor who is clearly paid by the government purse, to do something other than look for reasons to keep us in the EU.

NB..... I am not IN or OUT...yet.

[nethen1]

Un elected and unaccountable..

[ttproducts]

I'm In. I found this earlier:

"What did the EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from:-

providing 57% of our trade;

...................

you missed:

Removing our right to enforce our own laws;

Adding numerous layers of government;

Making us eat straight cucumbers:

etc...etc.
-----------------------

This is just from the top of my head, not from some professor who is clearly paid by the government purse, to do something other than look for reasons to keep us in the EU.

NB..... I am not IN or OUT...yet.

Are you saying none of what I posted is true or just that it doesn't agree with your way of thinking?

The 'outers' say:

a) We can't implement our own laws to suit us so we should be out

and

b) EU laws can be interpreted and the UK chooses to interpret them in our own way so we should be out.

Logic and reason doesn't seem to have much of a place in this conversation.

I'm also surprised to see someone using the fact that the UK introduced disabled access and no-smoking laws as a reason why the EU is bad and we should leave

[Old Git Ray]

Good post there from 92kk k100lt 193214, it reminds me of a post earlier that said we are not culturally suited to EU membership. Take motorcycle tests for instance, the EU law doesn't say you need to retest at 19 and 21 years old, we interpreted it that way, decided it was necessary and implemented it.

The French largely ignore any EU law that doesn't suit them. The smoking ban case in point. Disabled accessibility laws. Both ignored in bars and cafes all over the country.

Britains approach to EU law is not going to change though, it's the way we are, and so if we remain in the EU that will continue.

Sadly, I agree with you. We have an empire of largely unnecessary officials who seem to be employed to make life difficult for others and all in the name of keeping up with EU legislation.

For me, I like being in the EU but it does bother me that we are now virtually unable to rule ourselves or make any major decisions without asking the permission of 27 other state leaders.

I know a lot of people have mentioned that they like traveling across borders but the older members on here will remember that it was not a problem 40 years ago before we joined the EEC. Also, we only had to ask our insurance companies for a green card to give us FULL comprehensive insurance cover abroad. THIS IS STILL THE CASE. Our current insurance policies only cover us for third party liability unless we apply for the old style green card.