Had the jab yet?

[Brenhden]

Came here to answers the question 'Had the jab yet?' only to find the tin foil hat brigade out in force.

I got the invite yesterday as I'm 43, went to register and it turns out I don't have a GP! Looks like I have a bit of leg work before I can have a jab. Worth it though. On this rainy day I really wish I was in the pub reading a newspaper with a pint and a bag of crisps.

[berin]

EMA reports it has investigated 62 reported cases of CVST in 9.2 million vaccinations. Further investigation clearly warranted, but astronomically longer odds than being affected by Covid-19!

Funny, because VAERS reports 1 AE per 166 doses and 894 deaths so far. The trials reported a 10% AE rate. AZ suspended by Denmark and Norway. J&J suspended in the US before it even got started. And according to Oxford QCovid I have about a 1/7000 chance of hospitalisation, an a minuscule one of death, which is not surprising since less then 1000 people under 60 have died with only Covid on the certificate. The government now estimates 25% of Covid deaths were wrongly counted.

But it’s a free choice, anyone that wants to take an experimental medical intervention should be free to do so. And those that don’t shouldn’t have to.


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https://fullfact.org/online/vaers-covid-vaccine-deaths/

What's the source of the statistic that less than 1,000 people under 60 have died with only Covid on the certificate please? (That stat doesn't mean Covid doesn't kill lots of people of course, which is what the statement seems to try to imply.)

The unfortunate part of people's choice in respect of whether they have the vaccine or not is that their choice doesn't only affect them, and could be fatal to other people.

The ONS. Go and look it up.


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[berin]

EMA reports it has investigated 62 reported cases of CVST in 9.2 million vaccinations. Further investigation clearly warranted, but astronomically longer odds than being affected by Covid-19!

Funny, because VAERS reports 1 AE per 166 doses and 894 deaths so far. The trials reported a 10% AE rate. AZ suspended by Denmark and Norway. J&J suspended in the US before it even got started. And according to Oxford QCovid I have about a 1/7000 chance of hospitalisation, an a minuscule one of death, which is not surprising since less then 1000 people under 60 have died with only Covid on the certificate. The government now estimates 25% of Covid deaths were wrongly counted.

But it’s a free choice, anyone that wants to take an experimental medical intervention should be free to do so. And those that don’t shouldn’t have to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://fullfact.org/online/vaers-covid-vaccine-deaths/

What's the source of the statistic that less than 1,000 people under 60 have died with only Covid on the certificate please? (That stat doesn't mean Covid doesn't kill lots of people of course, which is what the statement seems to try to imply.)

The unfortunate part of people's choice in respect of whether they have the vaccine or not is that their choice doesn't only affect them, and could be fatal to other people.

Which isn’t how vaccines work. Go and look that up too. Vaccines are to provide prophylaxis for the vaccinated. Or did you think that whenever you had a tetanus or typhoid jab that was to stop someone else getting sick?


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[berin]

EMA reports it has investigated 62 reported cases of CVST in 9.2 million vaccinations. Further investigation clearly warranted, but astronomically longer odds than being affected by Covid-19!

Funny, because VAERS reports 1 AE per 166 doses and 894 deaths so far. The trials reported a 10% AE rate. AZ suspended by Denmark and Norway. J&J suspended in the US before it even got started. And according to Oxford QCovid I have about a 1/7000 chance of hospitalisation, an a minuscule one of death, which is not surprising since less then 1000 people under 60 have died with only Covid on the certificate. The government now estimates 25% of Covid deaths were wrongly counted.

But it’s a free choice, anyone that wants to take an experimental medical intervention should be free to do so. And those that don’t shouldn’t have to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

https://fullfact.org/online/vaers-covid-vaccine-deaths/

What's the source of the statistic that less than 1,000 people under 60 have died with only Covid on the certificate please? (That stat doesn't mean Covid doesn't kill lots of people of course, which is what the statement seems to try to imply.)

The unfortunate part of people's choice in respect of whether they have the vaccine or not is that their choice doesn't only affect them, and could be fatal to other people.

Exactly. Some 'free choices' are those that have little or no impact on others, and these can safely be regarded as someone's right to do their own thing. But other 'free choices' actually impact and reduce the freedom of others to make their 'free choices'; these are conditional choices.

When you exercise your freedom to eat a banana rather than an apple it's pretty unlikely that that will impact me profoundly, if at all. But when you decide not to accept a vaccine against a deadly global disease and the success of the vaccine depends upon an 80% uptake, then you have a profound effect on my prospect of the vaccine saving me. You can't just say - "It's up to me to kill myself, none of your business" because your refusal to help yourself actively reduces my options to save myself.

It’s not “deadly”, or at least it’s no more deadly than a lot of other things. According to WHO CFR is about .2%.

Why should those who are able to understand this be forced to take an experimental medical intervention because some people don’t understand the facts?


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[daveuprite]

It’s not “deadly”, or at least it’s no more deadly than a lot of other things. According to WHO CFR is about .2%.

Why should those who are able to understand this be forced to take an experimental medical intervention because some people don’t understand the facts?

What planet are you on? Or rather, what conspiracy theories are you choosing to believe today?

Covid19 IS more deadly than a lot of other things. You know this. We all know this. Don't insult your own intelligence with this denial nonsense - it's demeaning.

You are not "being forced" to have a jab, but very strongly encouraged to do so, so you can climb off the individual rights bandwagon too. Your right to refuse is there. Sorely mistaken, but it's there. Nobody is 'forcing' you to do anything.

And as you also well know (or you should know because there's heaps of information available) new vaccines are tested extensively before issue. Indeed this is the main reason we didn't have them available to us sooner - we had to wait for the exhaustive testing stages to play out and until the regulatory agencies had cleared them. And they are also constantly monitored, and will be revised as new variants emerge. The minute risk associated with blood clots in one of the vaccines is less than the risk of thrombosis from taking a couple of international airline flights.

If you don't trust these facts for some reason, just research trusted academic sources and find out for yourself, instead of getting your 'information' from myth-peddling conspiracy websites/social media platforms/anecdotes/rumours.

And, as explained in posts above, this is NOT a matter of personal self-interest where you can hold your contrarian position without it affecting the rest of us. Your refusal to play a part in mass vaccination negatively alters our chance of reaching herd immunity, so we all have a strong interest in you basing your decision on sound information rather than nonsense.

[Elmer J Fudd]

Hmm, lots going on in this thread....

I just popped in to say that my second AZ dose appointment has arrived for a week and a bit. Wonder what the reaction will be this time, I was a bit woozy after the first one.

Referencing the debate on vaccine safety it is interesting to note that there have been many medical disasters over the years involving vaccines, so some caution / fear is a natural response. Polio, Thalidomide etc. have all caused countless deaths around the world, which were avoidable. The truth is that we are way too early to say whether or not any of the Covid vaccines may have consequences and we are to an extent trusting to luck as science is not infallible and also has a history of covering up mistakes.

I choose to take the vaccine, as while naturally sceptical, believe my chances of survival are better with it than without. Others think differently, which is their right and I'm not sure banging on about (possibly correct or possibly flawed) science is going to help, this isn't really a scientific decision, it is one of risk assessment, emotion and trust (or the lack of it).

We ride motorcycles and take risks, though not always of our own making, so taking a vaccine is similar, do you or don't you believe that any possible risk outweighs the benefit either of overtaking a van or taking a vaccine? Both could kill you in many ways despite the chances being small? Remember the chances of winning the National Lottery are 45million to 1, but someone wins most of the time.

I suspect the number of non takers will be very small in statistical terms, so will not affect the herd immunity threshold being made.

What I do detest are those who deliberately spread rumour and misinformation for gain or just to be an arse, their internet and phone providers should be made to shut them down.

[johnnyboxer]

Hmm, lots going on in this thread....

I just popped in to say that my second AZ dose appointment has arrived for a week and a bit. Wonder what the reaction will be this time, I was a bit woozy after the first one.

Referencing the debate on vaccine safety it is interesting to note that there have been many medical disasters over the years involving vaccines, so some caution / fear is a natural response. Polio, Thalidomide etc. have all caused countless deaths around the world, which were avoidable. The truth is that we are way too early to say whether or not any of the Covid vaccines may have consequences and we are to an extent trusting to luck as science is not infallible and also has a history of covering up mistakes.

I choose to take the vaccine, as while naturally sceptical, believe my chances of survival are better with it than without. Others think differently, which is their right and I'm not sure banging on about (possibly correct or possibly flawed) science is going to help, this isn't really a scientific decision, it is one of risk assessment, emotion and trust (or the lack of it).

We ride motorcycles and take risks, though not always of our own making, so taking a vaccine is similar, do you or don't you believe that any possible risk outweighs the benefit either of overtaking a van or taking a vaccine? Both could kill you in many ways despite the chances being small? Remember the chances of winning the National Lottery are 45million to 1, but someone wins most of the time.

I suspect the number of non takers will be very small in statistical terms, so will not affect the herd immunity threshold being made.

What I do detest are those who deliberately spread rumour and misinformation for gain or just to be an arse, their internet and phone providers should be made to shut them down.

Thalidomide was never a vaccine

It was used something that it was never designed for,which came about of a consequence of a positive side effect, hence why it was prescribed for women in their 1st and 2nd trimesters of pregnancy

Thalidomide is still in use today

[simonw]

<snip> which is not surprising since less then 1000 people under 60 have died with only Covid on the certificate. <snip>

What's the source of the statistic that less than 1,000 people under 60 have died with only Covid on the certificate please?

The ONS. Go and look it up.

I did, and I believe you are mistaken. Futhermore, you appear to have massively over-simplified a complex statistical and medical situation.

The ONS data for deaths where COVID-19 are listed on a death certificate for patients aged 1-64 (there is no "under 60" group) between January and December 2020 show a total of 1,549. For 65 and over the number of deaths where COVID-19 is listed on a death certificate for patients aged 65 and over is 7,851.

But, as with all statistics, that doesn't paint the whole picture of course.

Sources: https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transpar ... minfluenza links to a dataset published at https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... ndandwales.

The guidance notes state:
Row 28 of Table 1a of this dataset provides the number of deaths occurring in England and Wales in 2020 where COVID-19 was listed as the underlying cause, but had no other pre-existing conditions recorded on the death certificate. This data are split by broad age groups between 1-64 and 65+. This publication will be updated quarterly. Unfortunately, we do not hold analysis showing any further age breakdown for deaths from COVID-19 alone.

Deaths with a positive test are coded using the ICD10 code U0.71 and those with suspected COVID-19 but no test has been conducted are coded with ICD10 U0.72.

You may also be interested to note the following, which appears further down the page of my first quoted link:

Here are the summed totals for COVID-19 up to week ending 19 March 2021:

Deaths involving COVID-19 (underlying or contributory cause): 135,560

Deaths due to COVID-19 (underlying cause): 121,665

This provides a bit more of the jigsaw puzzle, but still not the whole picture of course. Probably the most notable parts missing from the puzzle are the socio-economic and ehtnicitiy factors, but I doubt data are collected about these to a sufficiently detailed level to provide meaningful statistical insight.

I assume that since you are familiar with the ONS data in respect of deaths due, or related to, COVID-19, you will be aware of the difficulty in ascertaining COD, viz:

ONS mortality data comes from the information collected at death registration. Each condition mentioned on the death certificate is coded using the International Classification of Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10). From all the conditions mentioned, an underlying cause of death is selected using ICD-10 coding rules. The underlying cause of death is defined by WHO as:

a) the disease or injury that initiated the train of events directly leading to death, or

b) the circumstances of the accident or violence that produced the fatal injury

When cause of death information is gathered from the death certificate, it does not necessarily map directly from line to cause code. The coding team follow a specific set of rules when coding the underlying cause of death and the codes allocated to each condition depends on where they occur on the certificate. For example, underlying cause is not always taken from one specific line of the death certificate, the coding team read all of the causes listed on the certificate and choose the cause that led to the sequence of events that led to death. Further information about ONS coding rules is available in ICD-10 Volume 2 Instruction manual 2010.

Finally, if you wish to learn more, you may be interested to read about the complexities of counting COVID-19 deaths and the different methods used in a blog article by Professor John Newton of Public Health England, which can be found here: https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk ... 19-deaths/

[simonw]

<snip> Which isn’t how vaccines work. Go and look that up too. Vaccines are to provide prophylaxis for the vaccinated. Or did you think that whenever you had a tetanus or typhoid jab that was to stop someone else getting sick?

I'm interested in reasoned debate and learning from other people who hold a different view and/or have more knowledge about a given subject than me. I'm not interested in emotive reactionary responses which do nothing to further this community or people's understanding and knowledge.

[daveuprite]

Thalidomide was never a vaccine

It was used something that it was never designed for,which came about of a consequence of a positive side effect, hence why it was prescribed for women in their 1st and 2nd trimesters of pregnancy

Thalidomide is still in use today

Exactly. It was a mis-prescribed drug. You can't blame a perfectly safe and efficacious drug for the terrible consequences of prescribing it to the wrong people for the wrong reasons. Its correct label application (from brand new) was for treating leprosy and myelomas, NOT morning sickness.

As to the polio vaccine, there was one very serious incident in the 50s (the Cutter incident) where a pharmaceutical company mistakenly released a poorly de-activated drug, allowing actual polio virus into the population vaccinated. 200 children suffered or died. The correctly formulated vaccine against polio has no such impact and has saved thousands if not millions of lives.

So these are poor examples of defective drugs/vaccines, more associated with negligence than the original sound science that created them.

It's important to be precise and accurate when citing examples, and to make a reasoned and well-researched assessment of risk before judging the usefulness of vaccines.