London Terror Attack

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-Ralph-
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Re: London Terror Attack

Post by -Ralph- »

Boggs wrote:The very fact that we seem to be able to have the islam debate without the fear of being branded racist far right looney's suggests we must be making a little progress,race has got nothing to do with it,i don't care what anyone looks like or where they're from,it worrys normal thinking people when you're following a warped version of a religion which justifys killing innocent people.
Take the car that was used in the attack. A rented Hyundai driven by lots of different people. You could modify it in almost every way so that it was a "warped" version of a Hyundai, but it would still be a Hyundai underneath, and it would still be a car, not a weapon. What made it a weapon was the person who got in it and drove it at 40 people across a bridge.

What people seem to miss is this is not a debate about Islam, it's a debate about a group of sick mentally ill nutcases who claim to be Islamic, or who were truly Islamic before they become radicalised.

What is a religion? Faith in and worship of a higher power? A set of written and widely followed scripture? There's not too much else you could define it as.

The Islamic religion doesn't justify killing innocent people full stop, and there is no "warped" version of it's scripture. It's not like Christianity that has Methodist, Baptist, Gideon, etc, etc, you can't go out and buy an extremist, fundamentalist, Jihad version of the Koran.

It's people who are extremist, fundamentalist, and I'll use the word even though it's wrong Jihadi.

(The word Jihad has been taken totally out of context and now used to describe someone who is obsessed with holy war or violence, it actually means a spiritual struggle)

The religion is just the belief system that is used by terrorists in order to help radicalise murderers. If you believe strongly in god, it's helps someone who wants you to murder, to try and convince you that god wants you to do it. It doesn't matter which god, or what religion you follow. All religions have been used as an excuse for terrorism.

It just happens that in the last two decades with Al Qaeda and IS, terrorists claiming to be Islamic are more prominent.

Islam isn't a weapon, and the people who make it a weapon aren't following a "warped" version of it. They are the ones who are warped, and they are taking Islam completely out of context.

It's a fine line I admit, if a warped version exists in their sick heads, then it exists right? Well, look up the definition of Fundamentalism and you'll find it's "the strict and literal "interpretation" of scripture". Jihad is now seen as meaning an obsession.

Interpretations are carried out in peoples heads, obsessions are in peoples heads, the problem isn't in the scripture or with the religion.

For some reason when we see Christian sects killing themselves or other people in America, we realise that and blame the mental health of a leader and his followers, but we don't blame it on any version of Christianity itself.

The difference between a twisted belief system, and a twisted person following a belief system is a subtle one, but it's an important one so we don't end up barking up the wrong tree when we try to tackle it.
"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
-Ralph-
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Re: London Terror Attack

Post by -Ralph- »

jonny955 wrote:Yes, Ralph. I agree it must come from their community and from high up within, first.
It perhaps needs those who are high up within to influence people to act, but it's the ordinary people who need to act, when they see or hear someone talking or behaving like a potential terrorist.
"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
ollydog
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Re: London Terror Attack

Post by ollydog »

thats the best bit of script ive read of yous in a while ralph

steve
skipper
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Re: London Terror Attack

Post by skipper »

-Ralph- wrote:
What people seem to miss is this is not a debate about Islam, it's a debate about a group of sick mentally ill nutcases who claim to be Islamic, or who were truly Islamic before they become radicalised.

What is a religion? Faith in and worship of a higher power? A set of written and widely followed scripture? There's not too much else you could define it as.

The Islamic religion doesn't justify killing innocent people full stop, and there is no "warped" version of it's scripture. It's not like Christianity that has Methodist, Baptist, Gideon, etc, etc, you can't go out and buy an extremist, fundamentalist, Jihad version of the Koran.

It's people who are extremist, fundamentalist, and I'll use the word even though it's wrong Jihadi.

(The word Jihad has been taken totally out of context and now used to describe someone who is obsessed with holy war or violence, it actually means a spiritual struggle)

The religion is just the belief system that is used by terrorists in order to help radicalise murderers. If you believe strongly in god, it's helps someone who wants you to murder, to try and convince you that god wants you to do it. It doesn't matter which god, or what religion you follow. All religions have been used as an excuse for terrorism.

It just happens that in the last two decades with Al Qaeda and IS, terrorists claiming to be Islamic are more prominent.

Islam isn't a weapon, and the people who make it a weapon aren't following a "warped" version of it. They are the ones who are warped, and they are taking Islam completely out of context.

It's a fine line I admit, if a warped version exists in their sick heads, then it exists right? Well, look up the definition of Fundamentalism and you'll find it's "the strict and literal "interpretation" of scripture". Jihad is now seen as meaning an obsession.

Interpretations are carried out in peoples heads, obsessions are in peoples heads, the problem isn't in the scripture or with the religion.

For some reason when we see Christian sects killing themselves or other people in America, we realise that and blame the mental health of a leader and his followers, but we don't blame it on any version of Christianity itself.

The difference between a twisted belief system, and a twisted person following a belief system is a subtle one, but it's an important one so we don't end up barking up the wrong tree when we try to tackle it.
Unfortunately the Islamic religion has no leader. It is constantly up for discussion and interpretation of the Quran in every different mosque, and there lies one of its main problems and one of the reasons why they fight with each other as well as we infidels.This was explained to me in much more detail by one of the elders at one of the biggest mosques in the uk.
-Ralph-
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Re: London Terror Attack

Post by -Ralph- »

skipper wrote:
-Ralph- wrote:
What people seem to miss is this is not a debate about Islam, it's a debate about a group of sick mentally ill nutcases who claim to be Islamic, or who were truly Islamic before they become radicalised.

What is a religion? Faith in and worship of a higher power? A set of written and widely followed scripture? There's not too much else you could define it as.

The Islamic religion doesn't justify killing innocent people full stop, and there is no "warped" version of it's scripture. It's not like Christianity that has Methodist, Baptist, Gideon, etc, etc, you can't go out and buy an extremist, fundamentalist, Jihad version of the Koran.

It's people who are extremist, fundamentalist, and I'll use the word even though it's wrong Jihadi.

(The word Jihad has been taken totally out of context and now used to describe someone who is obsessed with holy war or violence, it actually means a spiritual struggle)

The religion is just the belief system that is used by terrorists in order to help radicalise murderers. If you believe strongly in god, it's helps someone who wants you to murder, to try and convince you that god wants you to do it. It doesn't matter which god, or what religion you follow. All religions have been used as an excuse for terrorism.

It just happens that in the last two decades with Al Qaeda and IS, terrorists claiming to be Islamic are more prominent.

Islam isn't a weapon, and the people who make it a weapon aren't following a "warped" version of it. They are the ones who are warped, and they are taking Islam completely out of context.

It's a fine line I admit, if a warped version exists in their sick heads, then it exists right? Well, look up the definition of Fundamentalism and you'll find it's "the strict and literal "interpretation" of scripture". Jihad is now seen as meaning an obsession.

Interpretations are carried out in peoples heads, obsessions are in peoples heads, the problem isn't in the scripture or with the religion.

For some reason when we see Christian sects killing themselves or other people in America, we realise that and blame the mental health of a leader and his followers, but we don't blame it on any version of Christianity itself.

The difference between a twisted belief system, and a twisted person following a belief system is a subtle one, but it's an important one so we don't end up barking up the wrong tree when we try to tackle it.
Unfortunately the Islamic religion has no leader. It is constantly up for discussion and interpretation of the Quran in every different mosque, and there lies one of its main problems and one of the reasons why they fight with each other as well as we infidels.This was explained to me in much more detail by one of the elders at one of the biggest mosques in the uk.
Very similar to Christianity then really.

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"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
Allan F
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Re: London Terror Attack

Post by Allan F »

My opinion. Religion is the equivalent of a story book. Believe it if you like.

Regards Allan
Mike54
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Re: London Terror Attack

Post by Mike54 »

ISIS has nothing whatsoever to do with religion in any kind of way. Simple as that.
-Ralph-
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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:16 pm

London Terror Attack

Post by -Ralph- »

Just watching this lass on Sky News

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/sasha-havlicek-0378921

She's an expert in counter extremism.

She's just said that Jihadism in Muslim converts is over represented, because a deep and lifelong understanding of Islam tends to act as an inoculation against extremism.

So the radical groups are recruiting people who converted to Islam, because they can teach them what they want to teach them, and they don't know enough about the religion to see the lies.

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"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
skipper
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Re: London Terror Attack

Post by skipper »

-Ralph- wrote:

Very similar to Christianity then really.
Extremely close to Christianity, in fact Christ is an important prophet in Islam. The point he was making is that most religions have a controlling head figure like the pope or the Dalai lama etc. There is no such structure to Islam, no head and so susceptible to extreme interpretations.
-Ralph-
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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:16 pm

Re: London Terror Attack

Post by -Ralph- »

skipper wrote:
-Ralph- wrote:

Very similar to Christianity then really.
Extremely close to Christianity, in fact Christ is an important prophet in Islam. The point he was making is that most religions have a controlling head figure like the pope or the Dalai lama etc. There is no such structure to Islam, no head and so susceptible to extreme interpretations.
Who's the figurehead in Christianity? The Pope only covers Catholisism.

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