EU. In or out?

[Elmer J Fudd]

my point is,
the vote you cast will either go on to win or lose,
thats life,as in thats democracy carried out,
thats life as in move on or keep going round and round,

dave.

I get that Dave, however when decisions as important as Brexit and Independence have been influenced by a myriad of lies and deceit, which in both cases they have, then that is not democracy and you cannot expect people to just move on.

People are angry and upset and although in the case of Brexit are unlikely to get another vote anytime soon, the UK countries pulled into Brexit by Little England are going to flex their muscles and demand their votes for independence. In the case of Scotland they demand a new vote based on truth this time.

Who are you, or anyone else, to deny or stop that?

[dave h]

I hope we are both masters of our own destiny,

dave.

[garyboy]

confused ..

I've truncated the garyboy post.

We are pretty much all mongrels, but the English (as a nation) like to forget their past (conquered by Italians, French, Scandinavians, Germans. Gave the crown away to Germans, Dutch etc. etc.) and believe themselves to still be the great imperial power of yesteryear. Thumbing your nose to the Europe by leaving the EU is just an example of that nationalism and by virtue of simple population numbers, England drags the other UK (and dependencies) along with it.

Nationalism within the other UK countries is a direct result of being treated as second class by England and in particular Westminster governments over many years (hundreds). It is not a new thing related to Brexit (Blair relocating the North Sea border between England and Scotland as an example), however that brings it closer to the surface.

I am not unique in having an English (well Yorkshire) mother and Scottish father. I have travelled, lived and worked in England at different periods and I have had all the "Och Aye jokes", had my money refused, and been asked to pre-pay for petrol when my Scottish Reg plate was noticed. The actions of a minority of idiots or the patronising complacency of the silent majority should not define a country, but these days it is coming close.

Scotland wants out. Majority in polls.

Wales wants out. Majority in polls.

NI wants out. Probably 50/50 these days.

If England and the English were so wonderful, why would we all want out?
If England could do better without us, why do they want to keep us chained to them?

The EU is a place where nations can come together and transcend borders, language and nationalism for a common good. It is nowhere near perfect, but not being a member, will not give the NHS £350million a week. Being a member gives free trade (not Bojo's lying definition), free movement and most importantly a seat at at the table where decisions are made. We gave that up because a load of "we won the war" union jack (Oh the irony) waving English Nationalists wanted to wave their bow fingers at the Frogs and Krauts.

Now we have been forced out against or wills, is it any wonder the other UK nations are looking at ways to get back in?

(this post took well in excess of ten minutes to write)

this would make a great speech .. stirring in parts ... but .. we were not forced out against our wills .. were we? .. o .. unless you are a remoaner ..... `nations come together`? `a common good` ? .. perhaps this could be applied internally to the UK, so that we all work productively together to improve matters by getting over the first bumpy steps to (re) independence, and creating a visionary place in the new world of opportunity?

[Elmer J Fudd]

this would make a great speech .. stirring in parts ... but .. we were not forced out against our wills .. were we? .. o .. unless you are a remoaner ..... `nations come together`? `a common good` ? .. perhaps this could be applied internally to the UK, so that we all work productively together to improve matters by getting over the first bumpy steps to (re) independence, and creating a visionary place in the new world of opportunity?

Thanks,

Not a remoaner in the sense that there is no point in just moaning, however there is great mileage in reminding those that voted for Brexit that the outcome is not as was described or voted for by the vast majority (of those that cared). We have tried listing pros and cons and the cons side outweighs the pros side immensely.

In terms of the UK, if the constituent parts of the UK had equal status, equal votes per nation and a right of veto such as the members of the EU do, then yes, we could, under those conditions see a fairer stronger UK. Westminster and England will never willingly give up being the dictator to the smaller nations, so that state of balanced, serene tranquillity will never be achieved.

I suppose this just proves the point that equal status, equal votes per nation and a right of veto is achievable as members of the EU, so it stands to reason for the other UK nations to pursue this visionary place of opportunity.

[Brenhden]

my point is,
the vote you cast will either go on to win or lose,
thats life,as in thats democracy carried out,
thats life as in move on or keep going round and round,

dave.

This is fine in a general election as there is another one coming along in a few years. Not so with with referendums. I don't want the UK to break up but if I was Scottish I'd be frikken furious with how this all played out.

[Oop North John]

I think that the handling of the Covid crisis has put a spotlight on the abilities, or lack of, of the UK government and the devolved nations. The strengths in the Covid response seem to mirror that with the Brexit process.

I was born in northern England and have lived in Scotland for the last 10 years and I can understand why there's been a shift towards independence support up here. If, and it's a very big if, Scotland can get the EU to guarantee a place back in Europe, if they're independent, then my thoughts are there'd be more who'd now support independence. How likely is the EU to guarantee it with the Spanish etc with their nationalist factions and given the border between Eire and Northern Ireland was so contentious?

[daveuprite]

This is fine in a general election as there is another one coming along in a few years. Not so with with referendums. I don't want the UK to break up but if I was Scottish I'd be frikken furious with how this all played out.

Yes exactly Bren - and Scots are not the only group effectively disenfranchised by Brexit. Many people are still unaware of the 15 year rule. Those of us british passport holders who live in the EU are subject to the 15 year rule. After 15 years of living abroad we are denied any vote in UK elections or referendums. But we are also not allowed to vote in our resident country until we become nationals.

Several of us on this forum are already disenfranchised by this rule. Personally it applies to me in 2 years' time. Tories promised to repeal the rule but didn't, and it suited brexiters that thousands of UK passport holders were unable to vote in the 2016 brexit referendum because as a group we were far more likely to have voted 'remain'. EU policy makers are very concerned about it because nobody in Europe should be denied the right to vote, whether that be in their passport country or their country of residence. As of Jan 1st 2021 a UK passport holder living in France cannot even stand and serve as a local councillor in their french commune, which before brexit was a way quite a few brits used to integrate and help out in their local area. So from 2023 I cannot influence the government in France or in the UK, nor can I use a protest vote, even though I pay taxes in both countries (although mainly in France). Policy made by government in both countries affects my interests, but I will be barred from voting in either place. This is taxation without representation, which was a principle grievance of American revolutionaries way back in the 1770s!

I don't expect any sympathy or understanding from brexiters for the above injustice, because brexit has been characterised by selfishness and a total lack of empathy among its preachers, but it remains the case regardless.

Yet again, brexit shows itself as an anti-democratic force and most certainly not the exercise of democracy that its supporters claim it to be.

[daveuprite]

How likely is the EU to guarantee it with the Spanish etc with their nationalist factions and given the border between Eire and Northern Ireland was so contentious?

Good question. I think it's more likely that if a second IndyRef results in Scottish independence the country will still have to join the queue for EU membership along with North Macedonia, Montenegro, Albania and Serbia. Perhaps its very recent adherence to all EU legislation and rules, its familiarity with EU membership and its existing convergence with EU policy puts it at an advantage compared with countries on the waiting list that still have a way to go before they qualify. This might give Scotland a leg-up into re-joining. I don't know. There could still be a row about whether an indie scotland would keep the pound or adopt the euro, amongst other matters.

The irony is that the party which always made such a song and dance about being 'The Conservative AND UNIONIST Party' was ultimately the organisation that accelerated the break up of that very union it claimed to treasure so dearly.

Good article this morning that covers some of this ground:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... lry-brexit

[Jak*]

You’re right Dave, that article is worth a read. The trouble is that we need to have a massive change in the attitude of those who are negotiating with the EU on behalf on the UK. All the recent rhetoric from Bojo et al will make it very difficult and the right wing media will not help. The reality is that we are the weaker player now and as much as the EU needs us we need them more. Perhaps the most telling paragraph in the article is:
“If “sovereignty” means a state’s formal legal authority to make its own laws, adjudicated by its own courts, then the UK has gained some more sovereignty. If “sovereignty” means the effective power of a state to control its own destiny and advance its national interests, then the UK has lost sovereignty.”
This is something that a lot of Brexiteers have failed to understand, we gained a theoretical sovereignty in order to lose the practical one. It will require a huge amount of skill, hard work, tact and humility to make up what we have lost.

[dave h]

Lets storm Parliament,

dave.