EU. In or out?

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daveuprite
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by daveuprite » Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:08 am

Yeah well, not being a brexiter myself of course it's hard to know exactly which emotions they are feeling these days. So I might be unintentionally misrepresenting them. Betrayed, misled, conned, delusioned, perhaps just plain disappointed? You certainly don't hear that jingoistic xenophobic false pride so much these days as you did in 2016. At the end of the day, not even the most ardent brexit voter can genuinely say that it's gone well can they? Most of them have gone silent, which is maybe a kind of embarrassed denial? It's hard to say.

I don't have any sympathy because the merest few minutes of intelligent research during the 2016 campaign would have quickly revealed the lies of the leavers and the benefits of remaining. The brexit campaign leadership relied heavily on a big dose of stirred up nationalism and an uninquisitive core of easily persuaded populism that they could tap into and mold into the shape they needed with simplistic falsehoods and distortions. It worked a treat. Trump did it too in his own way, and Bolsonaro, Dutertes, Erdogan, Putin etc etc.

Anyway, we are where we are. The harm is done and can't now be reversed (well not for a long time).

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by Crossrutted » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:43 am

daveuprite wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:08 am
Yeah well, not being a brexiter myself of course it's hard to know exactly which emotions they are feeling these days. So I might be unintentionally misrepresenting them. Betrayed, misled, conned, delusioned, perhaps just plain disappointed? You certainly don't hear that jingoistic xenophobic false pride so much these days as you did in 2016. At the end of the day, not even the most ardent brexit voter can genuinely say that it's gone well can they? Most of them have gone silent, which is maybe a kind of embarrassed denial? It's hard to say.

I don't have any sympathy because the merest few minutes of intelligent research during the 2016 campaign would have quickly revealed the lies of the leavers and the benefits of remaining. The brexit campaign leadership relied heavily on a big dose of stirred up nationalism and an uninquisitive core of easily persuaded populism that they could tap into and mold into the shape they needed with simplistic falsehoods and distortions. It worked a treat. Trump did it too in his own way, and Bolsonaro, Dutertes, Erdogan, Putin etc etc.

Anyway, we are where we are. The harm is done and can't now be reversed (well not for a long time).
It was all so tragically predictable , you didn't need to be the "Brain of Britain" to see the outcome, however millions voted "Leave".

What does that tell you about the current state of the United Kingdom? The whole debacle did, still does and will forever boil my piss.

In addition, it has strengthened the hand of the SNP with regard to dismantling the "Union".

It's about time we had a representative body for the English...

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by lancashirelad » Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:44 pm

If the EU had been a bit more flexible when Cameron tried (half heartedly) to negotiate better terms for the UK all this could’ve been avoided BUT even though I don’t have any firm stance on the EU Barnier trying to strong arm us riles me somewhat.
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by Jak* » Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:13 pm

If the boot were on the foot, so to speak, and say France was trying to leave the EU and we were staying in, then we would be urging the EU to do exactly what they are doing now i.e. protecting the interests of the members who remain. In many ways if they succeed they will also be acting in the interest of the majority of the UK citizens by ensuring that we continue to meet some of the standards that the EU has set in terms of environmental protection, data protection and workers rights. Also to be fair to the EU, they are not the ones who presented an oven ready deal and then broke international law in order to change it unilaterally. To be honest if it were not for the fact that the EU realises that it is stronger if it has a close trading relationship with us, it would be understandable if they told us to shove it and go it alone. So far they have looked like the grown ups in this situation.

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by Crossrutted » Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:47 pm

Jak* wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:13 pm
If the boot were on the foot, so to speak, and say France was trying to leave the EU and we were staying in, then we would be urging the EU to do exactly what they are doing now i.e. protecting the interests of the members who remain. In many ways if they succeed they will also be acting in the interest of the majority of the UK citizens by ensuring that we continue to meet some of the standards that the EU has set in terms of environmental protection, data protection and workers rights. Also to be fair to the EU, they are not the ones who presented an oven ready deal and then broke international law in order to change it unilaterally. To be honest if it were not for the fact that the EU realises that it is stronger if it has a close trading relationship with us, it would be understandable if they told us to shove it and go it alone. So far they have looked like the grown ups in this situation.
I agree with all of the above...except the last sentence.

The EU could have behaved so much better.

Their 1st mistake was appointing a French ex-government minister to be the figure head for negotiations. No French politician could afford to be accused of giving in to the British. Add to that the fact that Barnier is a typical French "new aristocracy" authoritarian, the process was never going to progress smoothly.

The British approach has been poor in most respects, the EU only marginally better IMO.

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by daveuprite » Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:29 pm

I completely agree with Jak's last line. The EU is large, cumbersome and bureaucratic - but that's mainly because it does things to a hefty rule book, agreed by the members. So to people like Johnson and his tories, who want to take shortcuts. employ amateurs, play games and break rules - the EU is a pain in the arse. Barnier has been nothing more than a negotiator employed by the commission to carry out the pre-agreed wishes of the 27. Any intelligent and diplomatic bureaucrat could have done the job. He did it well. He never deviated from the script delivered to him by the members, which is what was required of him.

As early as Teresa May's early days in office the tories hoped to split the 27, to divide and rule, to pitch one country against another. It didn't work - not at all - not one tiny bit - and that has surprised many EU commentators. A defining attribute of the brexit negotiation has been the unadulterated solidarity between the 27. They have shown the maturity where the UK has shown petulance. They have been unflinching where the UK has dithered and backtracked, lied and obfuscated. They stuck to their original published plan while the UK twisted and turned, always looking to bash a square peg into a round hole. And most significantly the EU has had the magnanimity to seek to prevent the UK from its own self-harm. Throughout the process the EU has tried to protect the long-term interests of the british people (including those on the island of Ireland) from the damage being inflicted on them by their own government - whilst simultaneously protecting the 27 remaining members as far as possible from the inevitable lose-lose damage of brexit. That's why they come across as the adults and Johnson's tories as the spoilt, whingeing, impossible to deal with child.

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by qcnr » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:29 am

Hear hear....

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by dave h » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:36 pm


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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by garyboy » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:39 am

daveuprite wrote:
Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:05 am

.. Lots of us living abroad are scrambling for citizenship or residency-rights lifeboats, as the rug is pulled from beneath us. Here in France there are lots of hoops to jump through, but at least those of us who have been here a fair few years will get the new residency cards. Thanks to brexit however we still loose valuable freedom of movement / work rights. Utterly ridiculous. Totally unnecessary. Stupidly vindictive. Completely regressive. No wonder so many UK passport holders living abroad have started to despise their country of birth.


that explains a lot, Dave

.. remember that many patriot living here in the UK (united kingdom) .. or should I say .. scotland ireland wales and england .. really feel for your situation and people like you, all over europe .. and hope that matters will be resolved .. at some time, if not sooner

wishing you and Tracie all the best and sincere wishes for the future ..

but please remember that your situations are not our fault or of our doing


I have always believed that relationships between the EU and UK will return back to the amicable and loving friendship that has existed for many many years

not least because it is in all our interests for this to be so

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by daveuprite » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:11 am

garyboy wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:39 am
but please remember that your situations are not our fault or of our doing
Our situation is the fault of the current british tory government, anyone who voted for them and anyone who voted brexit back in 2016. It is UK foreign policy, right now, to deny us valuable rights that enabled us to move to France and live/work here without restrictions. These are the rights that any EU citizen was free to exercise until Jan 1st 2021, at which time they will be denied to british passport holders. It's unforgiveable.

And when you say: "remember that many [in the UK].. really feel for your situation and people like you, all over europe .. and hope that matters will be resolved .. at some time, if not sooner" I think I disagree. Sympathy is very few and far between. Mostly we get the opposite. Mostly we get an infantile "you moved abroad so sod you" reaction, especially from brexiters, Johnson-supporters and other extremists, aided by The Daily Mail and right-leaning bloggers, columnists, OP-Ed pieces and internet forums. And there is absolutely no prospect that 'matters will be resolved at some time'. Quite the opposite. Johnson is moving fast towards either a no-deal scenario or a piss-poor one, and he has shown that he is willing to tear up the withdrawal agreement too, which contains the meager remaining protections that have been allowed to UK emigrants. We are being shat on, and it's getting worse not better.

Imagine for a moment that many years ago you bought a house and some land. You paid cash, you own it and you have the deeds that set out exactly what you legally own. Then some years later a higher authority comes along and says that from tomorrow you only own half the land, that other people can build on it, knock down part of your house and construct a stink-bomb factory in what used to be your living room. You point out that you bought the plot in good faith under the rules of the day and you have the paperwork to prove it. 'Don't care', they reply - 'we put it to the people and a minute sliver of a majority of those who bothered to vote on one day in 2016 said that you should have your rights to your property removed from you'. That's how it feels to be a UK passport holder living in the EU as a result of brexit.

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