EU. In or out?

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OB1
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by OB1 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:32 pm

One of those lines trotted out by those who fail to see the benefits of the EU (I'm looking at you, Mr. Farage) against the likes of Donald Tusk, et al is that they are "un-elected EU bureaucrats".

We all know that this is just a dog whistle but, when I saw it on my Facebook timeline again today, I thought I'd have a look and educate myself. Turns out that he was re-elected on the 9th of March, 2017, for a second term to last until 30 November 2019. He did, in fact, receive 27 out of 28 votes (the one vote against him came from Beata Szydło, the Prime Minister of Poland), meaning that the UK representatives within the EU actually voted for him.

What Farage and all those who regurgitate his waffle are trying to say is that they didn't vote for him. Well, you probably didn't vote for Theresa May either but it doesn't remove the legitimacy of her role in the politics of the UK.

Farage is no better than Trump in that he throws out off-hand comments that he probably knows are untrue or, at best, skewed with the full knowledge that his base will just repeat everything he gives them with no thought of fact checking... hence the £390 million bus.
Last edited by OB1 on Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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garyboy
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by garyboy » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:41 pm

Flyfifer wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:20 pm
Fourth Reich by default ?
It takes only one good man etc.

If the country was a Person it would be sectioned --- Greek Philosopher.

Churchill said something like ,-- ten minutes with the avg voter and you would understand why a Presedential system works.

Cometh the hour --- Cometh etc.

'The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.' ..(Edmund Burke)
..yes, but …

`All it takes is one good person to restore hope.` ..(Pope Francis)

`The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.` (Winston Churchill)
..yes, but …

`Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. The greatest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter. Democracy is the rule of the people, by the people and for the people.`

`Democracy is nothing but the Tyranny of Majorities, the most abominable tyranny of all, for it is not based on the authority of a religion, not upon the nobility of a race, not on the merits of talents and of riches. It merely rests upon numbers and hides behind the name of the people.` (Proudhon)


Here are some more definitions of `democracy` ..

From Wikipedia
`Democracy...is government by discussion.
John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
`Democracy is a system ensuring that the people are governed no better than they deserve.
George Bernard Shaw
`Democracy is more a verb than a noun.
Dr. Cornel West
`The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy.
Alex Carey,
`Democracy is the rule of the people, by the people and for the people.
Abraham Lincoln
`a democracy is nothing more than an angry mob, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.
Thomas Jefferson, allegedly
`Majoritarian democracy by itself is not freedom but the rule by a larger group. … Under a victorious democracy the most important task for liberal principles is thus the protection of minorities, especially of those which do not have a chance to gain the majority for themselves.
Carl Friedrich von Weizaecker
`Democracy is ethically right but intellectually void.
Max Kislanski
`Those who vote count for nothing; those who count the vote count for everything.
Joseph Stalin

Flyfifer
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by Flyfifer » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:41 pm

The frustrating thing it is, as someone posted a few pages back, simple to stop Brexit by suspending article 50.

The problem is there is nobody in Parliament willing to risk their career by going public and pulling together a cross house coalition to stop it on the basis that it is not in the best interest of the Nation.

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by daveuprite » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:50 pm

Flyfifer wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:41 pm
The frustrating thing it is, as someone posted a few pages back, simple to stop Brexit by suspending article 50.

The problem is there is nobody in Parliament willing to risk their career by going public and pulling together a cross house coalition to stop it on the basis that it is not in the best interest of the Nation.
Not just suspending it, Fly. It needs revoking. Just cancel it.

There was an ECJ ruling a few months ago that confirmed the UK could revoke A50 at anytime until 11pm on 29th March, unilaterally, and by simply issuing an official government letter. While the political parties torture over which version of cock-up involves the least 'cock', one solution remains. Never in the field of politics could so much suffering be avoided by so few actions.

It's a utilitarian calculation, just like those made by military commanders during a war, who justify killing 10,000 in order to save one million. It's the cost of very much upsetting those brexiters who have not already changed their minds anyway (basically about 25% of the country) ... against... the advantage of getting the UK back on an even keel and avoiding disaster for millions.
Last edited by daveuprite on Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by garyboy » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:15 pm

I think where the disconnect is, between `leavers` and `remainers`,
is that `leavers` voted on ideological principle
.. (sovereignty, laws, money, freedom, independence, etc)
and `remainers` voted on economic issues
.. (trade, 4freedoms, single market, customs union, wealth creation, status quo, friendships etc)

I would like to think that all of us can remember that the
majority
of voters in the referendum, voted to leave the EU

even if a lot of the population do not believe in our system of democracy
surely we should all still respect the result of a public vote?
as this system is the one we all adopted
and, by default, all agrees to
and is admired all around the world (possibly)

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by scutty » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:35 pm

garyboy wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:15 pm
even if a lot of the population do not believe in our system of democracy
surely we should all still respect the result of a public vote?
as this system is the one we all adopted
and, by default, all agrees to
and is admired all around the world (possibly)
I totally agree but it is not a fixed, permanent thing - democracy, by it's very nature, changes with public opinion. Leaving based on the facts and details (or total lack of) presented at the 2016 referendum would be a travesty (in my mind). And remember, unlike democracy, leaving is permanent - we would never again get the deal we have now.

Spike941
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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by Spike941 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:44 pm

Can’t say I feel sorry for TM for many of the reasons highlighted by Daveuprite. I do feel sorry for all the Leave voters who possibly won’t get a chance to amend their choice. Many too embarrassed to speak up, and are dreading living with the consequences.

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by Flyfifer » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:54 pm

In my view forget a second referendum with probably a baffling choice of options that the EU wouldn't be interested in.

Stop Article 50 and tell the people the Government made a decision.

(Students of Politics will still be writing their Thesis on this shambles in 50years,).

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by HedgeHopper » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:54 pm

Flyfifer wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:41 pm
The frustrating thing it is, as someone posted a few pages back, simple to stop Brexit by suspending article 50.

The problem is there is nobody in Parliament willing to risk their career by going public and pulling together a cross house coalition to stop it on the basis that it is not in the best interest of the Nation.

Umm, you might also like to consider that little matter of the Vote to leave the EU, I know it was only us racist thickos what voted for it but still it was rather a lot of us

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Re: EU. In or out?

Post by HedgeHopper » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:58 pm

Stop Article 50 and tell the people the Government made a decision.
Oooo000 Lovely a dictatorship.....My favourite :mrgreen:

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