chinese are coming

[Seminole]

making motors for bmw and ktm for years

Wasn't that Taiwan?, my experience is of a large difference in quality between China and Taiwan

[catcitrus]

I guess not Chinese but with some parts produced overseas

I'm lost as to the market--especially as there are much cheaper alternatives out there--and also secondhand of course--now if it were more of an adventure/trailie then I think the market is there--but the price has to be right.

[Godspeed]

I guess not Chinese but with some parts produced overseas

I'm lost as to the market--especially as there are much cheaper alternatives out there--and also secondhand of course--now if it were more of an adventure/trailie then I think the market is there--but the price has to be right.

Yes I agree, the Honda CB500 range is about the same with a really good proven design and parts. Personally I know where I’d spend my money

[Richard Simpson Mark II]

The problem for the Chinese bike industry is that entering the premium market entails incurring premium costs. Those quality suspension and braking systems cost the manufacturer the same whether they are put on a bike in Italy or China.

The labour cost of fitting them is lower in China, but not as low as it once was. The differential is eroding quite quickly, and that leaves the case for a Chinese bike harder to make

Example...the clone of the KTM 890 has a projected UK price of £9 - £10 k. That's about £2k less than the KTM, and you get an inferior spec, and probably a more difficult dealer experience (finance, parts back-up etc).

Fast forward three years, and the value of the clone will probably drop far faster than the KTM's. So you end up loosing more than the £2k you 'saved' up front, and haven't had the more joyful experience of riding the KTM.

China hopes to get around this by investing in robots to reduce assembly labour costs, but the problem here is that the robot costs pretty much the same to run in China as it does in Europe, Japan or America, and it becomes more efficient to assemble the vehicle close to its end market. Shipping costs are up, too.

That's certainly the case in the car market...even the Koreans make many of their cars for Europe in Europe.

[catcitrus]

Agree with the closing gap and reasons---many products are "returning home" for manufacturing--simple market forces. The prices of the middleweight adventure bikes are really closing on the European based prices. The one exemption is Enfield I think. They have kept their models simple and well priced--and have built a good reputation worldwide--noting that their main design centre is in the UK now. I attended the Overland winter warmer last weekend and in several of the presentations the RTW travellers did it on Himalayans. Just to add I was in my local KTM dealers today and a 390 adventure is 5400---so what would you choose?

[Tonibe63]

Agree with the closing gap and reasons---many products are "returning home" for manufacturing--simple market forces. The prices of the middleweight adventure bikes are really closing on the European based prices. The one exemption is Enfield I think. They have kept their models simple and well priced--and have built a good reputation worldwide--noting that their main design centre is in the UK now. I attended the Overland winter warmer last weekend and in several of the presentations the RTW travellers did it on Himalayans. Just to add I was in my local KTM dealers today and a 390 adventure is 5400---so what would you choose?

I agree.
If the KTM 390 Adventure was a bike that I wanted then I would buy it based on the fact that it should hold most of its value if I decided it wasn't for me and sold it on. The problem with the Chinese bikes is that they lose a lot of value come resale time which is even more of a concern with new prices getting closer to European manufactured bikes. The Enfield bikes are a bit of a safer bet due to used prices remaining strong and very little direct comparable competition.
I've never bought a new bike or car as I tend to be a cash carrying vulture looking for a bike I fancy at a big discount. My 2 year old Chinese 500 was 50% of its new price and my 18month old Enfield was 65% of its new price. A bike I do want to try hasn't been out long (12 months) and the cheapest used bike I can find is 80% of its new price so it's a no from me.
If the Chinese want to sell bikes at near European manufactured bike prices they need to improve the dealer support network to the point where residual values are high and the PCP industry will back up the sales. I know that personal finance is widely available but it's the PCP residual that dictates the used prices.

[Scott_rider]

See also the Moto Morini Xcape...subject to a glowing write-up from Stuart Gardners former chief cheerleader Alan Cathcart in this week's MCN.

I saw one on the road at the weekend in a queue of traffic in Aylesbury...and it looked very, very nice . I had to google what it was and then did a search on here because it was a bike I had never heard of before. Has anyone got one?

[Richard Simpson Mark II]

My local dealer has a demo.

It looks nice (styled in Italy) and I understand it has the old Kawasaki KLE 500 lump as the basis for its engine.

The only review I've ever seen of it was written by a certain Alan Cathcart...it was positive, but then so was every word he wrote about the Norton mobile scrapheaps that have since been declared as unroadworthy.

I used to be a big Moto Morini fan...it's so sad to see the company reduced to this. But they are not the only 'Italian legacy' brand out there. Still, the Italians rebranded Chinese noodles as spaghetti, so it's just the way the world goes.

[catcitrus]

Nathan Milward has had one for a few months and regularly posts about it on faceache.

[Tonibe63]