Electric Bikes... the Future?

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daveuprite
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Re: Electric Bikes... the Future?

Post by daveuprite »

qcnr wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:47 pm Electric schmectric. As mentioned electric vehicles are not the way forward. They died out at the beginning of the vehicle revolution.
Why?
Consider the amount of energy used by road vehicles today in ICE, you will need to produce a similar amount of energy as electricity to replace ICE.
The current infrastructure can barely cope with todays demands. Now imaging the population getting home from work and plugging in their cars.
As an addition to ICE, yes. As a replacement, no.
That argument is false, I'm afraid, although many people fall for it, understandably.

It's all about cradle-to-grave impact assessment. You can carry out an EIA (environmental impact assessment) or an Energy Impact Assessment - not quite the same thing, although closely related for obvious reasons.

If you simply count the electricity used to make the petrol that's burned in an ICE vehicle, you need more electricity than you do to move an EV the same distance. First you need to factor in the actual gasoline used (and the resulting CO2 emissions). Plus, don't forget, it also takes a lot of water to refine gasoline, and of course it takes energy to pump that water. Add it all together and you have a positive energy efficiency argument in favor of plug-in vehicles.

The industry accepted amount of electricity it takes to drill, transport and refine a litre of petrol is around 2 kWh. For 2 kWh you can go around 6-10 miles (depending on the vehicle). So an average petrol car uses just under 40 kWh to go 100 miles. An EV, on the other hand, uses around 30 kWh to go 100 miles (given 3.3 miles per kWh, which is on the low side for some EV cars). Even if the exact numbers need to be shifted a bit one way or the other, you're just comparing electricity use here – not the petrol that needs to be factored in for the ICE vehicle. So, if you were able to magically use all the electricity that is currently spent to give us petrol and shove it into automotive battery packs instead, you'd use less energy and no petrol. Plus no tailpipe emissions of course.

In terms of overall EIA, the key to transition over to EVs is the grid system - already in place - and vitally the means of electricity production. In countries where the energy source mix for making electricity is a typical average western european mix of CNG (gas), Nuclear and Renewables EVs already make far more sense than ICEs, and as the proportion of renewables used to fire the grid increases (which it is all the time at present) they make even more sense again. The problem is where a country is very heavily dependent upon old fossil fuel tech (coal) for its electricity supply, which is when the advantages are marginal, but most countries are moving rapidly away from this model (sure, not rapidly enough, but nonetheless...).
catcitrus
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Re: Electric Bikes... the Future?

Post by catcitrus »

What you have missed are two things--maybe three. 1. Energy density storage limitations with EVs i.e . kWh/m3----the physics and chemistry are improving but this is still limited--I have played with sodium /sulphur batteries and other dodgy combinations for underwater propulsion. The range is limited and the weight and space penalty precludes the use for the key to our lives--transport of goods. (I accept that hybrids are the way to go with constant speed/power charging systems). 2. The cost in power and resources of mining, refining and manufacturing the batteries and systems. Lithium is not exactly plentiful or easy to mine and refine. 3. the limited life of lithium batteries--they only have a limited number of cycles before they start to lose storage performance--and then you have a huge recycling problem with no real infrastructure as yet. Typically the higher the energy density of battery material combinations then the shorter their cycle number life. 4. The fuel cell is a far more sustainable use of modern tech and gives appropriate vehicle range. Hydrogen as a fuel source is being actively researched and will be produced by offshore wind powered plants to be piped ashore. 5. The "well to wheel equation" basically says that a lot of the current vehicle fleet have long since paid their CO2 debt to the manufacturing cost and the answer lies in more AFFORDABLE public transport to reduce their annual mileage. The focus should be on the transport of goods--at sea and on shore--and currently a well refined diesel (most modern large ship diesels are approaching 60% fuel conversion efficiency) is the only viable power source(or go back to sail!). The focus on passenger cars is totally wrong as their contribution to global CO2 is frankly flyshit. Its all about keeping vehicle manufacturers in business selling new, expensive and unnecessary products, and the governments taking "backhanders". Money spent on HS2 for example is obscene, and only serves the large corporate construction companies with their "mates" in government. Its the biggest waste of resource for a century and will not be used--and they then say they cant afford a decent NHS pay rise etc--we live in a very corrupt and self serving elitist society at the moment.
daveuprite
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Re: Electric Bikes... the Future?

Post by daveuprite »

Cradle to grave that includes manufacturing and disposal is a different discussion, that we've had elsewhere. Both phases (i.e. building the car and recycling/disposing of it) have remarkably similar environmental impacts whether the vehicle is EV or ICE. That's obvious really - they are all made of very similar materials and share very similar components with the exception of the battery/engine.

Energy density is another interesting subject but irrelevant to the train of thought above, which is about the electricity needed to produce petrol.

I didn't include a far more general discussion about relative environmental impacts between transport sectors because the thread is about EVs. I agree about HS2, which is a vanity project and actually detracts from progress on rail coverage needed elsewhere.

And again, hydrogen is another matter, which has major potential. I am good friends with the CEO of a UK company which employs renewable energy to power advanced hydrolysis plant, separating water. The hydrogen can then power a wide variety of vehicles or plant. It's very good work and shows that it's often combinations of new technologies that yields the best results rather than silo-ed thinking.

The one thing we can be sure of is that GG emissions from fossil fuel sources has to stop or at least return to pre-industrial levels, so complacency is a mistake and wholesale change is inevitable.
Billy Bananahead
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Re: Electric Bikes... the Future?

Post by Billy Bananahead »

Old topic i know, but this just came to my email from Bikeexif. Quite a good idea, probably been done before, but if all bikes could get this treatment i'd probably go for one that took my fancy.
https://us7.campaign-archive.com/?e=3f0 ... 8a819dd190
PHILinFRANCE
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Re: Electric Bikes... the Future?

Post by PHILinFRANCE »

" The one thing we can be sure of is that GG emissions from fossil fuel sources has to stop or at least return to pre-industrial levels "

Someone best tell the Chinese then !!!!!!
daveuprite
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Re: Electric Bikes... the Future?

Post by daveuprite »

PHILinFRANCE wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:48 am " The one thing we can be sure of is that GG emissions from fossil fuel sources has to stop or at least return to pre-industrial levels "

Someone best tell the Chinese then !!!!!!
Not defending China for one minute, Phil, but you need to look at the figures. Yes, China as a country is the highest emitter of CO2 (10-11GT), but per capita it emits about the same as the UK and France (about 7 tonnes per person). The per capita record goes to Saudi Arabia, closely followed by Australia, Khazakhstan and the U.S. - whose citizens on average live much more wasteful and consuming lifestyles than those of China.

China, as a whole country, has such a bad CO2 emissions figure because it has become the factory of the world. Many western countries have effectively outsourced the emissions they would have produced themselves by farming out manufacturing to China. This distorts the figures.
Tonibe63
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Re: Electric Bikes... the Future?

Post by Tonibe63 »

Maybe we should look at it a different way.
Rather than blaming the point at which the pollution is generated we should actually focus on the point at which the energy/product/food etc is consumed because consumer demand is the thing that drives it all. We as consumers are the problem and the solution.
Open your eyes and you see what is in front of you, open your mind and you see a bigger picture but open your heart and you see a whole new World.
daveuprite
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Re: Electric Bikes... the Future?

Post by daveuprite »

Figures are available for that, Toni.

The real issue is that you have a genuinely GLOBAL crisis involving greenhouse gas emissions which obviously have no understanding or respect for artificially created human borders. There is no bigger GLOBAL issue.

But we are still treating it as a national and inter-national issue, as if the responsibility can be carved up along traditional nation-state lines. This allows badly polluting nations to point the finger at somewhere like China and say 'why should we act when their record is so much worse than ours'. Of course the CO2 molecule and the CH4 molecule does not give a fig where it is generated, nor as a result of whose consumption - it simply does its thing, obeying the laws of chemistry and physics, trapping solar energy and warming the atmosphere.

There are lots of suggested solutions to the inappropriate allocation of blame and responsibility for climate change, but none have been adopted yet at a global level. There is no body at that level with the power to implement those solutions. Certainly not the United Nations (which works hard on this but has no clout to enforce any of it). While we cling to the old nation-state means of tackling an issue that does not respond to that model, GHGs will increase and everyone will blame everyone else. It's very depressing.
catcitrus
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Re: Electric Bikes... the Future?

Post by catcitrus »

Personally I think self charging hybrids are the way to go-BUT--a slightly different approach than today's---back in the 70s there were experimental cars running around with battery packs and a nice quiet , constant speed and power output SMALL generator--very efficient--especially these days. The generator would chug along quietly all the time and the varying demand would be available from the battery pack. I also think that a lot of old cars have paid their dues--by that I mean they may emit a bit more, but thats it. This whole "convert to full electric " thing is a massive con to keep the rich richer and big business running. Just think of all the CO2 and destruction it takes to mine the battery materials, build the factories, refine the steel and assemble the bloody things---the CO2 hit per vehicle is simply NOT worth it from a global warming and destruction perspective. Who can afford to buy new electric vehicles--not me--and probably not 98% of the world's population. We haven't even touched on road transport and shipping yet. For inner cities, to make them LOCALLY cleaner, then full electric makes sense--but elsewhere no. In this country we are blessed with a rubbish public transport system so people have no choice--don't get me started on Boris's mates club of HS2.
minkyhead
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Re: Electric Bikes... the Future?

Post by minkyhead »

930 dollers 600 quid ?? paid 3k for a moutain bike

maby not as minamilist as this thing but im sure the 10k lecy motor will arrive thats at least crash proof ....



whats the wether forcast ..wheres me map
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