The next step....

The Things We Ride
scooby
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Re: The next step....

Post by scooby »

Some interesting thoughts on EMTB's on here, i've been riding mtb's for nearly 30 years most of which has been where they where designed for and you definately get what you pay for, if you want a good mtb especially an electric one you have to pay for it , i don't think many people would buy an enduro bike for £5000 new because they would think its rubbish, but that £5000 gets you a really good eMTB.
As for no market for used eMTB's have a look at Specialiazed Levo's on Ebay most sell for not far off new price, but any thing is a waste of money if you dont use it, happy trails.
Bart1
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Re: The next step....

Post by Bart1 »

Another option is to covert a "normal" mtb with a mid drive kit. I did this on a full suspension Voodoo with a Bafang 250w Mid drive for just over £1k about 20 months ago ( prices have krept up sonce though)...it has been the best grand I've spent in ages. There is a post on this thread with a picture somewhere. Mine is used on roads, bridleways, gravel tracks etc and works for me.

Found it

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=49732&p=657963#p657963
Thedktor
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Re: The next step....

Post by Thedktor »

Just want to link to this other thread before I add to this.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=49732
- Steve



Southampton area

DR350, 349, DRZ, 701
Thedktor
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Re: The next step....

Post by Thedktor »

A Tale of 3 [Electric] Bikes.
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This Covid thing made me get on my bike, the pedalling type, but luckily with some added electric assist. Here's some waffle about that.

First up a Soctt Aspect eMTB hard-tail. Bought s/h in 2016 for a quarter of the £2k + it was new, as it was "well-used" and in need of some TLC. The motor and battery had been replaced under warranty a year or two previously, a not uncommon thing it seems, and a little concerning for long term ownership. Just the battery is around £500 in case you wondered...

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Fitted with a Bosch system it is very user friendly, and typical of it's type has a torque sensor on the pedal crank, meaning the harder you push the pedals the more power it provides - fabulous. One ride and I was converted! It just makes cycling so much more fun, you don't fear hills, and can power up gradients like you've got bionic legs.

Now, an electric bike doesn't make you lazy, unless you want to be. I find these bikes instead encourage you to pedal hard as the reward is a considerable speed increase compared to a non-assisted bike. For example, instead of crawling up a big hill at walking pace you can pedal hard and double, even treble, your speed. It's not impossible to average 15mph or more, on a heavy mountain bike, a speed more akin to a moderately fit rider on a skinny tyred racing bike.

Of course, eMTBs are legally limited to 15.5mph (most do 17mph) beyond which the power cuts off. With a bit of effort you can find yourself hitting this limit which is a bit annoying as it feels like the brakes have been applied! Trying to pedal through it is hard, unless you are going downhill, so it's usually easier not to try.

The Bosch system manages the battery well, and the display gives an accurate range countdown so you can plan your ride to avoid running out of juice: 20-25 miles on full power, up to 40 if you run at a low level. If it does run out the bike feels terrible - heavy and painfully slow, so to be avoided at all cost!

This bike has 29" wheels, roughly the same as a racing bike. They roll well on the road, but off-road make the bike feel big and less agile compared to a bike with traditional 26" mountain bike wheels. Surprisingly I didn't feel the bigger tyres were any better over bumps, and in fact this particular bike has a stiff frame and rides quite hard, magnified by the much-increased speed an electric bike offers, a point to bear in mind.

Another point to note: if you are considering an electric bike new or s/h, give it a good test: the motor in this bike does make a quite noticeable whining noise, which can be annoying. I couldn't find any wear evident on the internal gears, and a re-grease helped, a little.

To summarise: I think Electric bikes are brilliant and I would, without question, take this well-worn whining bike over the lightest, most expensive, non-assisted bike, any day! :P And having this new, fun, way to access some fabulous Hampshire countryside has been just what I needed in these challenging times....

Part 2 and bike 2 to come.
- Steve



Southampton area

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minkyhead
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Re: The next step....

Post by minkyhead »

wel i eventually killed my bike ..in fairness i really did some proper stupid stuff in regards to water and winter ..i rode a mates bosch bike and realised mine was a tad noisy .. closer inspection of the totally negleted beast revealed every bearing shot at ,,,,un detered i bought a bearing kit and replaced the lot cleaned the water out ,,,,,i knew it wernt great when a mugful of brine spewed out when i split the cases ....
bearings were not too bad to do replaced everyone feeling quite pleased with meself ..and then ..the dreaded code 500 ...nowt would make it connect sent it off and the circuit board had died when it dried out
oh well 500 quid for a new motor and all was well .. sounds a lot but in the last foutrr years ive really really used it 5000 miles all off road and some really foul conditions ...so i guess you can say at 125 quid a year its no big deal ,,,,
i spoke to the engine guys that couldnt resarect me old motor very helpful on the phone ....heres the thing with water he said the bosch gen 2/3 were splash proof to a degree the yamaha wasnt to bad but reacted very badly to ingress and the brose was pretty much a open sliuce with zero protection on ingress .....he says the gen 4 bosch motors now have a much more robust sealing system both sides of the cranks ..and they do look proper compared to the older motor
the seals on these motors are borderline pathetic given their use .im used to replacing bearings and these are pretty much open to direct water contact ...on the plus side the bloke said ..commuters couriers ...sensible use type people were colocking 50.000 miles with zero issues .knowing abit more now i should have popped the covers now and again and drained the water and seen to the main bearings a lot sooner ..it is partly my fault but also crap seals that are a proper cop out from the job they should be doing ...

it is good to see the gen 4 motors have actually taken a step towards the 21st century with proper crank seals ..it really is very poor sloppy engineering in this day and age when they cant produce a bearing seal on a push bike ...anyway we live and learn

so while the motor was out i thought sod it ill buy another bike .and then either sell the parts on e bay or put another motor in ....so i was thinking should i buy a full supension bike i really didnt think i needed one ...reasons i dont need one for what i do ..basically any path thats on a o/s map ..woodland tracks ..occasional mess about on the local mtb park .and the old bus just did it all really well ....i totally understand why a suspension bike is better on techy hard climbs and decents and all that but ,,i really dont want to go there im not good enough for that stuff and id be ok to a point but im not hopping steep rocks and slippy tree roots without proper protection of the legs kness elbows and all the rest of it ..so id rather leave that stuff alone and just bosh out longer bridleway type stuff ..so i just went the same again cube reaction big tyres and big boy battery ... couple of extra crawler gears motor has more tourque and ive noticed im getting up some scrabbly tree rooty nasty mudfuck climbs with a lot less effort it deffo much stronger stronger setting off and at low crawler cadence speeds ..theres one bit i usually struggle on to keep going and it just smashed up it no bother so its quite nice upgrade ..put me rockshox 130s on it in stead of the spring fork but not radically differant ...i found the old /new bike with big tyres really very comfy and capable on some really bumpy stuff and the places i really needed a full suspension bike few and far between ..cube seem to have a better frame /wheel structure for taller people than equivelant sizes ive tried in other brands ......i tested a cou[ple of full suspension and the geometry is to radical for me being comfy on long stints ..i tend to use stem raisers for comfort but can drop the bars on aadjustable stem for the mtb park when i get there ..one thing i do like is the dropper post its been very good on down stuff ..but even simple everyday stuff like stopping at atraffic light or getting on when on a gassy track its been very handy

totally restrored the old girl with new everything and was happy enough to sellit to agood mate it was too good just to scrap ..so shees still braaaping around ...hindsight says i should have been patiant as its still agood bus now ..but put the new motor in new chainrings ect and it rides well ...

anyway be carful in that water chaps ......onwards and upwards

leccy circuit board open in the crank housing .......so cos we done this we better make sure the seals are good ......err not :twisted:

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whats the wether forcast ..wheres me map
Thedktor
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Re: The next step....

Post by Thedktor »

Electric Bike No.2

I had passed the Scott onto my mother with the intention of getting a conversion kit for one of my own bikes, but never got round to it. However, Lockdown March 2020 and I was straight on the phone to order a motor, the well-known 250W Bafang crank drive. I initially fitted it to my suspension bike, the subject of the next tale, but the motor is now in this GT hardtail.

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I love this bike, its small, light, and quick handling, and just does everything without fuss. At a modest £400 back in 2007, it was quite a bargain considering its decent quality components, and is my most used bike ever. It’s been up Welsh mountains, all along the south coast, its done the London to Brighton event twice, and been bashed across the rocks of Portland dozens of times.

Back to the electric bit and the Bafang motor does not have a torque sensor and instead starts and pulls as soon as you pedal, even with no pressure. It’s a little crude in this respect but the motor controller ramps the power up gently at first, gives a firm push at medium pedalling speeds and then tails it off at higher speeds. The end result is quite acceptable, just not as natural feeling as the Bosch torque-sensing type.

Again, it encourages you to pedal hard as the speed from the motor on its own is quite modest, but it does have plenty of torque - enough to pull you up quite a steep hill on the motor alone, albeit at a slow speed.

These kits are not as sophisticated as the Bosch type built into bikes at the factory, and you get a more noticeable power fade as the battery discharges. There is also no range meter, but after a few rides you can judge reasonably accurately from the battery bars.

Now, a couple of things of interest, firstly these kits have a throttle yay! That does mean you can push the throttle, not pedal, and be really lazy. However, you don't go that fast, and your battery would not last long, so not something I do normally. There are situations it does comes in really handy, such as starting, or riding, through a particularly rough bit of terrain, and not having to pedal can be easier and more comfortable. A bit like a motorbike of course.

Next thing, these motors allow all sorts of settings to be changed, including the maximum speed. It is not legal of course, but change it to 20 and by putting in the effort you can ride at more satisfying 17-20mph on the flat without the annoying cut-out. Above this wind drag starts to become significant and you are fighting a losing battle anyway.

My favourite thing about this motor however, is how quiet its is – you just don’t hear it at all normally and you can pedal along at a brisk speed, wind in your face, and just the noise from the tyres and the world around you, wonderful.

A final thought – this hard-tail GT rides noticeably less harshly than the Scott, but as soon as you use the extra speed provided by an electric motor it can get very uncomfortable off-road and you really need some rear suspension. For this reason this motor spent most of the last year in my suspension bike, until.... I fitted that bike with another motor. More about that in Part 3.
- Steve



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Hugh
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Re: The next step....

Post by Hugh »

Greetings,

A bit off course but do any of you folks have experience of ladies, possibly, folding shopper type electric bikes?

No, serious question as my wife feels that she can no longer use her Philips 1960s bike with 3 speeds. Following heart problems and the dreaded ageing hip condition she wants something to use on cycle ways and to take away in the caravan.

The final query is the price as it will not be used a great deal so we ( I ) do not want to spend a fortune on it. Now if she were to be looking for a Norton 500T the world could be her oyster :lol:

TTFN

Hugh.
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Thedktor
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Re: The next step....

Post by Thedktor »

Part 3: Specialized Stumpjumper FSR.
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New in 2007 this was a top end machine, light, and long travel, well damped suspension both ends. This is my main "Covid bike" and after fitting the 250W Bafang motor in March last year was used nearly every day.

Because of the position of the rear shock a conventional battery wouldn't fit so a "bottle" type battery was stuck on the seat post instead. This high up weight proved less intrusive than expected, though prone to vibrating over bumps.

For some reason the bottle battery had poor discharge characteristics meaning after as little as 15 minutes there was a noticeable power drop, and after an hour it felt like it was only giving half power! Range was good, surprisingly, but after long discussions with the supplier they eventually agreed to exchange it for a conventional battery, which I mounted at an angle within the frame triangle.

Having the battery sticking out to one side was not aesthetically pleasing, but who cares, it worked very well, and the power output was far better. A modest fade noticeable around 15 miles, but with plenty of pull still past 30 miles, perfect.
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Enjoying myself thoroughly on this bike I thought it would be fun to try a 750W motor, and being virtually the same size shouldn't attract unwanted attention. I had a custom battery made to fit in the frame triangle, and this new kit runs at 48V compared to the usual 36V, so is more efficient: more voltage = less current = less heat.

Well, needless to say this thing has some serious shove, and on a flat road will do about 30mph! However on a bicycle these sorts of speeds don't feel quite right and I normally use lower power, and ride at a more modest 15-20mph. Off-road this feels plenty fast enough - any more and you would want to be wearing a lot more protective gear.

The big advantage of this new setup is that operating at typically 1/2 power, there is no appreciable battery fade over a normal ride for me of 25-30 miles, or a couple of hours. Conveniently this is also the battery range, and of course, more speed/power could halve the range easily.

It has been a successful experiment and the effortless torque from this motor is reassuring when faced with a big hill, though I still pedal quite hard anyway. I will say though that a 250W motor with a decent battery and no speed restriction works really well, and provided you are prepared to put some effort in, can transport you along at quite a respectable speed.

To summarize, the combination of electric and a good suspension bike is one of the best things I've ever put money into, and 2500-odd miles and half a stone lighter, it's obvious I enjoy it! Helped by endless bridleways and tracks round here, giving access to huge areas of countryside away from the crowds - a perfect antidote for these Covid times.

Having said that, I'm a long way off splashing out 4 or 5k on a new full-suspension eMTB when you could buy a motorbike for the same money. The kits are obviously more basic, but at £500-600 are a fraction of the cost if you already have a suitable bike.

* A foot note about using higher powered motors like this: the bicycle, and specifically the chain and gears, are working at the limits of what they are designed for, so will wear quicker, and need to be operated with some mechanical sympathy. A hub motor in the rear wheel takes the strain off the gears, but are better suited to the road, and anything over the legal 250W is BIG and quite obvious.
- Steve



Southampton area

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Pint Master
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Re: The next step....

Post by Pint Master »

ImageD8BEA4A6-24DC-4966-9A3B-D59D20412EEC by Tony Lacey, on Flickr

Mike Irving of Cambs TRF coming to grief on his Haibike, 2 broken ribs.

Click on picture.
minkyhead
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Re: The next step....

Post by minkyhead »

2 for location ...1 for style and...... 10 for impact :ugeek: looked nasty that ... cant quite make out what he were doing up there but hope hes better soon
whats the wether forcast ..wheres me map
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