Timmelsjoch museum

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BIG BILL
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Re: Timmelsjoch museum

Post by BIG BILL »

All I can say is very sad... :cry:

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Your along time dead..
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Elmer J Fudd
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Re: Timmelsjoch museum

Post by Elmer J Fudd »

garyboy wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:23 pm I really dont understand how various building regulations, in countries, are allowing flamable materials both in private and public housings???
Would be interesting to find out the cause of the fire.

Building regulations are usually based on life safety (USA is different and based on protecting the building) , so, as long as you can get people out the building can burn. In the UK countries, most low rise buildings are allowed to be formed in flammable materials depending on type and or the use of sprinklers. High rise needs to be non-flammable.

Timber or flammable is not dangerous unless used incorrectly. Look around your house and see how much timber is used even in a brick or stone walled home.

Bear in mind Grenfell was a concrete frame with aluminium over cladding, the issues for rapid fire spread being due to the type of cladding (plastic core to aluminium sheets) and the design of cavity / insulation and lack of working cavity barriers. Also issues with fire doors and a single stair and a defective fire action plan. A clusterfuck of defects in simple terms.
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Re: Timmelsjoch museum

Post by garyboy »

yes .. but it was so much more than that .... corrupt BRE, including bribery and fraud of test results .. illegal change of materials by contractor to make more profit .. poor/non inspections by council building inspectors .. poor non existent fire officer inspections ... no correct IEE certificate and others certs, ... bad design that should not have passed building and fire regulations ( you mentioned the items, stairs. cladding, also fire barriers, fire walls, fire compartments .... but then ... it didnt matter much , it seems as they were low class BAMEs ... and still it goes on ... no compensation, sick attempts to get the residents to pay ...... makes me sick and ashamed to be British ..... and the EU?.. dont know their role in all these regulations and Directives /??????

just saying
Richard Simpson Mark II
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Re: Timmelsjoch museum

Post by Richard Simpson Mark II »

I don't know whether there is/was an EU/ECE standard for buildings or building materials. But it would still be down to member states to implement and enforce them if there were. Since 1978, the UK has had a culture of removing 'needless regulation and red tape' and appears to have forgotten why much of it, covering everything from building to banking, was put on the book in the first place.

Still, think of the money saved by not doing things properly!
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Re: Timmelsjoch museum

Post by Richard Simpson Mark II »

Bear in mind Grenfell was a concrete frame with aluminium over cladding, the issues for rapid fire spread being due to the type of cladding (plastic core to aluminium sheets) and the design of cavity / insulation and lack of working cavity barriers. Also issues with fire doors and a single stair and a defective fire action plan. A clusterfuck of defects in simple terms.

Interesting...did Grenfell have a steel core structure? If so, was it compromised by the fire, or was all the heat on the outside of the building ?

Raises some interesting questions re Building 7 of the World Trade Centre...I thought it was all nonsense until I read this.

https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn ... ire-report


Is it nonsense or not?
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Re: Timmelsjoch museum

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garyboy wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:48 pm yes .. but it was so much more than that .... corrupt BRE, including bribery and fraud of test results

IT WAS ON TV, A COMMITTEE OF ENQUIRY, OR WOTEVER THEY CALL IT, IN THE CHAMBERS OF POWER ... A YOUNG LAD ADMITTED TO THIS CORRUPTION ... HE SAID, IN BROAD DAYLIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS PIERS/BETTERS, THAT HE THOUGHT BRIBARY AND FRAUD WAS `COMMON PRACTICE`.


.. illegal change of materials by contractor to make more profit

THIS AGAIN WAS HIGHLIGHTED ON TV, AS A FACT .. UNDER JUDICIAL REVIEW, BUT PEOPLE CAN NOT LEGITIMATELY BE PROSECUTED FOR SAYING THE TRUTH .. CAN THEY, THESE DAYS.?


.. poor/non inspections by council building inspectors .. poor non existent fire officer inspections ... no correct IEE certificate and others certs,

IF PROPER INSPECTIONS AND CERTIFICATES WERE DONE, THEN SURELY THE MANY MANY FAULTS WOULD HAVE BEEN DECTECTED AND RECTIFIED, SAVING THOSE 72? LIVES.


... bad design that should not have passed building and fire regulations ( you mentioned the items, stairs. cladding, also fire barriers, fire walls, fire compartments

THIS IS DOWN TO THE ARCHITECTS, CONTRACTORS, FIRE DEPARTMENT, CLERKS OF WORKS ... ALL INVOLVED HAVE AND HAD A DUTY OF CARE UNDER THE HASAW ACTS, AND THE CASES SHOULD BE PURSUED THROUGH THE COURTS !!! ABSOLUTELY SCANDELOUS !!!


.... but then ... it didnt matter much , it seems as they were low class BAMEs

THIS IS THE SERIOUS ACCUSATIONS BEING CURRENTLY PUT TO THE LOCAL COUNCILS AND GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS


... and still it goes on ... no compensation, sick attempts to get the residents to pay ...... makes me sick and ashamed to be British

YES ... THE RESIDENTS HAVE BEEN MADE TO PAY FOR THE MISTAKES OF OTHERS ... THIS HAS BECOME A VERY SICK WORLD INDEED ... UNBELIEVABLE

..... and the EU?.. dont know their role in all these regulations and Directives /??????

just saying
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Re: Timmelsjoch museum

Post by garyboy »

Richard Simpson Mark II wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:40 pm I don't know whether there is/was an EU/ECE standard for buildings or building materials. But it would still be down to member states to implement and enforce them if there were. Since 1978, the UK has had a culture of removing 'needless regulation and red tape' and appears to have forgotten why much of it, covering everything from building to banking, was put on the book in the first place.

Still, think of the money saved by not doing things properly!
totally agree ... i really cannot understand the `modern` `thinking on british standards ..... No Planning laws? basically, too ... [contractor can build where he likes] ... no problem, especially If he is a chum or donator ..... how do we put up with is scandalous behaviour ....
(end of rant :lol: )
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Re: Timmelsjoch museum

Post by garyboy »

Richard Simpson Mark II wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:43 pm Bear in mind Grenfell was a concrete frame with aluminium over cladding, the issues for rapid fire spread being due to the type of cladding (plastic core to aluminium sheets) and the design of cavity / insulation and lack of working cavity barriers. Also issues with fire doors and a single stair and a defective fire action plan. A clusterfuck of defects in simple terms.

Interesting...did Grenfell have a steel core structure? If so, was it compromised by the fire, or was all the heat on the outside of the building ?

Raises some interesting questions re Building 7 of the World Trade Centre...I thought it was all nonsense until I read this.

https://canada.constructconnect.com/dcn ... ire-report


Is it nonsense or not?


i believe Grenfell was a reinforced concrete structure, that in itself was fireproof and valid, as far as i know, tho i dont know if the rc beams were fireclad?

however, as mentioned, there was only one internal fire escape staiway, and this design oversight caused many deaths, form smoke as much as fire.

i seem to remember that the fire compartments were per floor? as opposed to per flat, but i may be wrong? ... whichever it was, it caused the fire on the one floor to find an outlet, which was through the windows ... this caught the cladding alight, which flamed upwards as well as dropping molten plastic downwards .. not to mention the smoke up through the stair shaft.


so grenfell did not have a steel core structure, but the far more robust RC core.



with the WTC structure, it was steel frame with floors of lesser strength lightweight steel designed for lightness, which did not contribute much to overall strenght ... it was minimalist, to say the least

we were told at the time that once one floor colapsed it collapsed the next floor and so on in a domino effect.

this new report seems to say that this was not the case but that there was a `global` failure ... all in one go, which seems a bit hard to believe?

I dont know what they mean by a `controlled collapse?` ... and if it was at `acceleration due to gravity` then there was no resistance at each floor?
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Elmer J Fudd
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Re: Timmelsjoch museum

Post by Elmer J Fudd »

Richard Simpson Mark II wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:40 pm I don't know whether there is/was an EU/ECE standard for buildings or building materials. But it would still be down to member states to implement and enforce them if there were. Since 1978, the UK has had a culture of removing 'needless regulation and red tape' and appears to have forgotten why much of it, covering everything from building to banking, was put on the book in the first place.

Still, think of the money saved by not doing things properly!
British Standards have been around since the turn of the 20th century which gave the BSI Kitemark for all sorts of things from products to systems of calculation etc. Most other countries have their systems, DIN in Germany for example. The EU (here we go again) have spent many years harmonising standards across the member states and we joined in too. BS codes became BS EN Codes and CE Codes came about too and replaced the kitemark as a symbol of safety compliance (except where fraudulently put on Chinese imports).

Several years ago he Scottish Technical Standards (Building Regulations) adopted the European codes for fire resistance / performance and recently the English Approved Documents followed suit (just in time to leave....Oh, the Irony).

All good as long as you use them correctly, and bear in mind the only BS / BS EN standards that are mandatory are the ones referred to as such in the Building Standards, or where a savvy client provides a list, everything else is advisory (same goes for healthcare codes HBN / HTM etc.)

The big issue has been the way that the Standards have been implemented, with cost cutting and corner cutting introduced to save cost.

There was an allowance for Case Study tests to be carried out, which means don't spend £50K on an actual test, but write a report to say one thing will react the same as another. You can say a product has a certain fire performance without actually setting it on fire. Not a good idea.

Building Control was privatised. Essentially the client appoints his own building control officer to check designs and Self Certification was allowed for some sections of the Regulations, Structure being one. If you pay you expect them to be on your side....

Then we get as far as self verifying , where the Contractor / client get to confirm that the installation complies with the regs / standards and is installed correctly.

Now for the bombshell - does anyone think that Bojo is going to tighten our standards so we have higher standards than the EU? For the answer.....he and his clowns have just allowed the pesticides that have been proven to kill Bees to be used again in the UK, while they are being banned everywhere else. No Bees, no Crops, Stupid Is as Stupid Does!

So, yes we have standards, very good ones, but too many ways to circumvent and yes it is your Governments fault or at least those that voted them in.
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Elmer J Fudd
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Re: Timmelsjoch museum

Post by Elmer J Fudd »

WTC towers were central core construction with a light structure to the external walls for stability and to take the glazing. They were designed for aeroplane impact but not for the size of planes used in the attacks.

Still loads of conspiracy theories, however it is interesting that they fell as a stack rather than toppling at the impact point as you would expect (plane goes in one side and fire is not evenly spread).

I remember we sat in the office and watched it live on the BBC news website with lots of people phoning friends who they thought may have been in one of the buildings.
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