Green laning

ChasF
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Re: Green laning

Post by ChasF » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:50 pm

I have to say that I've not been involved in UK trail riding/ROW for a long time, however, from reading the above posts the real issue seems to be that there is no definitive source on legal lanes for motorbikes. A lot of TRF members spend a lot of time collecting the information and are, rightly, protective of it. When I was a member anyone who turned up at meetings asking to have a map marked up was told to pss off. It was usually assumed that they were 4 wheel drivers who, at the time, were considered the root of all evil in terms of causing damage to the lanes. These days you can go on a TRF run or 2 with your GPS in your pocket and you'll probably have all the information you need.

It's a very difficult issue as the TRF has no right to keep the information secret and could be accused of actively encouraging illegal use of the lanes by so doing, which just adds fuel to the anti-vehicle campaigners fires. The anti's have always tarred bike riders with the same brush whether your riding an unsilenced motocrosser at breakneck speed on a bridleway or being a sensible TRF member. The main ethos of the TRF should be to educate both the anti's and those who want to go trail riding which would mean making their ROW data available to allcomers - never going to happen!.

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Mad Cow
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Re: Green laning

Post by Mad Cow » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:52 pm

Can we please not start a 4x4s v Bikes argument?

I green lane in/on both (so you might consider me the root of all evil but so be it) the simple fact is that most damage to lanes is caused by (legitimate) agricultural traffic. We should not be knocking each other but standing together against the bobble hatted menace that would get us all banned!

There are a variety of reasons that the TRF don't mark up maps these days, principally that if they are wrong and you get stopped and say "but the TRF told me it was OK" then it does nothing for their reputation. Please don't think i'm anti TRF, i'm an ex member and in GLASS we work very closely with the TRF and indeed in the 4x4 world we don't mark up maps either for the same reasons!

The real menace is the anti's who masquerade as "one of us" to seek information to use against us. And don't think it doesn't happen. We know of internal TRF emails being quoted by the anti's in GLEAM so we know they have infiltrated our organisations.

I did go to a Herts TRF meeting a while back and had to laugh, I was the only person who turned up on a bike. They all came by car :laugh: so it wouldn't be that hard for a member of the Paramilitary Front of the Ramblers Association to get away with it!

The definitive source of information is the Definitive Map held by the Highways Authorities, (usually the County Council) so a trip to County Hall with an OS map and a highlighter pen is worthwhile to find the Byways. Of course you then need to find which ones are closed by Traffic Regulation Order (TRO), not always that easy.

And of course the UUCRs are not on the definitive map but on the "List of Streets" these are the ones usually marked as "ORPA" (Other Route with Public Access) on OS Maps.

In Hertfordshire both the Definitive Map and the List of Streets are on line which does make things easier. The LoS is known as the "Gazeteer of Roads" and you need to have a road name or number to search on, however if you put in any road name in the Countyand bring a map up, you can then scroll around it to find what you want.

Hertfordshire Definitive Map

Hertfordshire List of Streets

And I'm happy to answer any queries about specific lanes in Hertfordshire.

OK I think i've finished my Rant now ;)
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ChasF
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Re: Green laning

Post by ChasF » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:27 pm

Mad Cow wrote:Can we please not start a 4x4s v Bikes argument?

I green lane in/on both (so you might consider me the root of all evil but so be it) the simple fact is that most damage to lanes is caused by (legitimate) agricultural traffic. We should not be knocking each other but standing together against the bobble hatted menace that would get us all banned!

There are a variety of reasons that the TRF don't mark up maps these days, principally that if they are wrong and you get stopped and say "but the TRF told me it was OK" then it does nothing for their reputation. Please don't think i'm anti TRF, i'm an ex member and in GLASS we work very closely with the TRF and indeed in the 4x4 world we don't mark up maps either for the same reasons!

The real menace is the anti's who masquerade as "one of us" to seek information to use against us. And don't think it doesn't happen. We know of internal TRF emails being quoted by the anti's in GLEAM so we know they have infiltrated our organisations.

I did go to a Herts TRF meeting a while back and had to laugh, I was the only person who turned up on a bike. They all came by car :laugh: so it wouldn't be that hard for a member of the Paramilitary Front of the Ramblers Association to get away with it!

The definitive source of information is the Definitive Map held by the Highways Authorities, (usually the County Council) so a trip to County Hall with an OS map and a highlighter pen is worthwhile to find the Byways. Of course you then need to find which ones are closed by Traffic Regulation Order (TRO), not always that easy.

And of course the UUCRs are not on the definitive map but on the "List of Streets" these are the ones usually marked as "ORPA" (Other Route with Public Access) on OS Maps.

In Hertfordshire both the Definitive Map and the List of Streets are on line which does make things easier. The LoS is known as the "Gazeteer of Roads" and you need to have a road name or number to search on, however if you put in any road name in the Countyand bring a map up, you can then scroll around it to find what you want.

Hertfordshire Definitive Map

Hertfordshire List of Streets

And I'm happy to answer any queries about specific lanes in Hertfordshire.

OK I think i've finished my Rant now ;)
The 4x4 versus bike arguement is a thing of the past and I agree the anti's are the real problem. However, I think you're point about the definitive map not being definitive or complete is exactly the point I was making - if it's not easy to get hold of all it's doing is encouraging illegal use.

All the political/infitration stuff just smacks of too many people who need to get a life. Here in France if we come across walkers being a pain 99% of the time they are English (strange but true)

Mad Cow
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Re: Green laning

Post by Mad Cow » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:47 pm

Chas

Why does that not surprise me!

The bike v 4x4 is not that distant unfortunately, the Journalist Mark Williams (he who started Bike Magazine) became the TRF's Press Officer a couple of years ago and immediately issued a press release that effectively said, if it wasn't for the 4x4 drivers, nobody would have any problem with bikes off tarmac! I was the Press Officer for GLASS at the time and i'm sure you can imagine what a headache that caused (not least because i'm a Trail motorcyclist myself).

Needless to say Mr William's views were not exactly in accordance with those of the TRF committee and he resigned from the post soon afterwards. So whilst it may be in the past for most, for some sadly it isn't.

And believe me it works both ways, I spend a lot of time defending bikers against 4x4 Drivers who given half the chance will drone on and on about bikes riding too fast, being too noisy and riding in large groups and don't even mention small number plates!

I am also a member of the Hertfordshire Local Access Forum and when introduced as the "4x4 Rep", I also take pains to point out i'm a walker, mountain biker, trail motorcyclist AND a 4x4 driver" and then I ask them if they have a horse I can borrow 'cos I fancy a go at that too :whistle:
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hornet
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Re: Green laning

Post by hornet » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:41 am

ChasF wrote: It's a very difficult issue as the TRF has no right to keep the information secret and could be accused of actively encouraging illegal use of the lanes by so doing, which just adds fuel to the anti-vehicle campaigners fires. The anti's have always tarred bike riders with the same brush whether your riding an unsilenced motocrosser at breakneck speed on a bridleway or being a sensible TRF member. The main ethos of the TRF should be to educate both the anti's and those who want to go trail riding which would mean making their ROW data available to allcomers - never going to happen!.
why would they or should they, The TRF dont hold all the records in one place,Individuals in each group plans there own rides at there own cost in money and time. These rides(which can take years to collate) are constantly reviewed and changed to suit TRO's (closures)and sensitive areas such as damaging soft ground,lambing,horse events, and over use of prime lanes reducing noise etc.

So you think publishing every lane is a good idea ?

The trf website actively displays useful digital information to non members

Just go to a meeting join a rideout show your not a selfish twat who can ride responsibly and the guys will show you more lanes and hospitality than you could imagine.

Ive spent days and days out on the trails with maps and more time than that online or with maps all over the floor working out routes and marking up maps to get the best of our remaining green lane network. Which ive shared with new and potential members (who then joined) Did i ask for payment as a guide NO! im just happy to have helped out a new guy and shown them a good time

easy pay £40 to the cause come along and we will happily take you out for a muddy good time

by the way chas thats probably the most stupid thing ive ever seen written about the trf, and unhelpful

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Re: Green laning

Post by hornet » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:49 am

Selous wrote:
royle100 wrote:meet up with local TRF
mm the guys i met where most helpful - NOT although I am yet to meet more of the Essex / Suffolk guys to form a firm opinion
selous meet up with norm and you will get a real sence of what is good about the suffolk trf
and how many lovely lanes we have and especially the surrounding counties which we spend may happy sundays playing in

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Norm De Plume
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Re: Green laning

Post by Norm De Plume » Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:05 pm

Cheers Hornet, I had drafted a reply to this thread earlier but Mad Cow managed to cover a lot of my points in the meantime so I didn't post it in the end. As far as NorthLondonCookie is concerned, the Essex TRF is a good bet and they are very active. Selous is half-way and could happily deal with both Essex and Suffolk groups.

I normally ride a smaller lighter bike on the trails but I'm currently in a "Big trailie" phase - anyone fancy a trog around Thetford Forest on 23rd? (http://www.adventurebikerider.com/forum ... -july.html)

ChasF
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Re: Green laning

Post by ChasF » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:01 pm

hornet wrote:
why would they or should they, The TRF dont hold all the records in one place,Individuals in each group plans there own rides at there own cost in money and time. These rides(which can take years to collate) are constantly reviewed and changed to suit TRO's (closures)and sensitive areas such as damaging soft ground,lambing,horse events, and over use of prime lanes reducing noise etc.

So you think publishing every lane is a good idea ?

The trf website actively displays useful digital information to non members

Just go to a meeting join a rideout show your not a selfish twat who can ride responsibly and the guys will show you more lanes and hospitality than you could imagine.

Ive spent days and days out on the trails with maps and more time than that online or with maps all over the floor working out routes and marking up maps to get the best of our remaining green lane network. Which ive shared with new and potential members (who then joined) Did i ask for payment as a guide NO! im just happy to have helped out a new guy and shown them a good time

easy pay £40 to the cause come along and we will happily take you out for a muddy good time

by the way chas thats probably the most stupid thing ive ever seen written about the trf, and unhelpful

hornet
I don't really understand how you misread my comments. What I said was that the TRF is in a difficult situation as on the one hand they are trying to keep up with all the changes (TROs etc.) so that they can ensure that their membership who are responsible trail users who understand that riding in the wrong place potentially has an affect on the future of trail riding as it gives credence to the anti's assertions that all motorbike riders are irresponsible yobs, whilst on the other hand they (collectively) are probably the best source of definitive up to date information and therefore if asked to supply this information to a third party (new member or someone who just turns up) and then refuses, this may result in that person trying to use another source of information that is not as good and ends up riding on some closed lanes adding to the anti's argument that the only way forward is close all unsurfaced roads to motorised vehicles.

I don't have a solution but I don't think that all information should published.

Just go to meeting and join a rideout - I agree this is the best thing to do but I had the impression that some people who had posted in this thread went to a meeting hoping to get data rather than joining a rideout and were met with an unhelpful response. Personally I think this is the way it should stay but it could create the situation mentioned above.

The crux of the matter is the source of definitive information for what is a very complex (and constantly changing) rights of way situation.

I'm a strong supporter of the TRF and an active member of the French equivalent organisation Codever

northlondoncookie
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Re: Green laning

Post by northlondoncookie » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:10 pm

Norm De Plume wrote:Cheers Hornet, I had drafted a reply to this thread earlier but Mad Cow managed to cover a lot of my points in the meantime so I didn't post it in the end. As far as NorthLondonCookie is concerned, the Essex TRF is a good bet and they are very active. Selous is half-way and could happily deal with both Essex and Suffolk groups.

I normally ride a smaller lighter bike on the trails but I'm currently in a "Big trailie" phase - anyone fancy a trog around Thetford Forest on 23rd? (http://www.adventurebikerider.com/forum ... -july.html)
Hey Norm- thanks for the offer but I have used my get out of jail card for the ride on the 24th. Don't have a light bike yet and reluctant to take Monster out on the back roads as it doesn't have good tyres and is bloody heavy to pick up :S.

Norm De Plume
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Re: Green laning

Post by Norm De Plume » Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:54 pm

northlondoncookie wrote:
Norm De Plume wrote:Cheers Hornet, I had drafted a reply to this thread earlier but Mad Cow managed to cover a lot of my points in the meantime so I didn't post it in the end. As far as NorthLondonCookie is concerned, the Essex TRF is a good bet and they are very active. Selous is half-way and could happily deal with both Essex and Suffolk groups.

I normally ride a smaller lighter bike on the trails but I'm currently in a "Big trailie" phase - anyone fancy a trog around Thetford Forest on 23rd? (http://www.adventurebikerider.com/forum ... -july.html)
Hey Norm- thanks for the offer but I have used my get out of jail card for the ride on the 24th. Don't have a light bike yet and reluctant to take Monster out on the back roads as it doesn't have good tyres and is bloody heavy to pick up :S.
No worries, sorry you can't make it. My 'big' bike is an 1150GS and I know what you mean about picking 'em up, although having a socking great pot stuck out on each side does help :whistle:

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